Advisor Tutorial Skin Project

[MixMan]

I am doing this to make it easier for graphical designers (and XML skinners) I want to keep all images in the skin root and have the names as describing as possible. Thats why I have used "Subs" naming in the skin files for the images. Like NormalButton, SelectedButton, PopupButtonNormal....but I changed the order so Button comes first. Then you get a better overview in Explorer.
Ease of use and understanding......is the only thing I have in mind.
But I might change the names while I'm developing. I have changed names a couple of times up till now.
Good suggestions are always welcome.

At the moment I am "moving" text strings to BaseSkin.xml and I am keeping "Subs" naming and just "commment out" the "moved" strings in the skin. This to keep the skin as close to the original Blue as possible.

[Old Dog]

I could write a small book but I will try to avoid that.

I like your goals. Your Advisor addresses skin design, Appearance Manager has nothing to do with skin design. Advisor is a system for skin designers, Appearance Manager is a plug-in for end users. These two programs could easily compliment each other, if you chose to allow it.

AM had to define some standard names and locations for a few files. I personally do not like some of these names but they are already in use at end user installations. Should these names be changed, it would cost somebody, it may even break something somewhere. My own desire to rename some of these files in not compelling enough reason to actually do it. Neither is your desire to use different names.

Going a little deeper (into that book), from some of your choices for file names I suspect (but do not know) that you may have some misconceptions.

I notice that you plan on changing the name of the plug-in background file from Background.JPG to Background.PNG. When there is no image on the screen, a white box with a big red X is visible. The background image should completely cover this up. It is not necessary nor even desirable to use transparency in the background image. For many backgrounds, a JPG file would be smaller than a PNG. Why do you want to use a PNG?

I also notice that you have gone to a lot of trouble to break the motif into component elements in individual files. Most of us, being software developers would instinctively accept this as being good. It is bad. In fact it is in direct opposition to your stated goal of making things easier for the graphic artist.

By breaking things apart at this level, you are forcing the manipulation of the XML file for locating and sizing the elements (this is not good for graphics designers), either directly or thru the use of a tool that you may be providing. All well and good for software developers (but bad for graphics designers).

In the real world, if you asked an artist to create a portrait for you, you wouldn't require them to use your brushes (tools). Don't do so here.

This is getting too long and my daughter wishes to use the computer. I will bring it to a rapid conclusion by suggesting that you recognize that all GBPVR skins are divisible into three-and-a-half layers. Develop an understanding of each of them and identify the type of person that should be working at each layer. Make sure that the Advisor addresses each appropriately.

Best Regards,
David

P.S. Emphasis added later, plus (additions to original)

[MixMan]

Thank for the feedback.
We have different views on things.
I wand to keep the naming of images as close to Subs naming as possible.
If he suggests names that are better I will use them, since he is the "masterbrain"
I will not change the names to the ones that you have choosen for AM.

My goal is to make skinning as easy as possible from the graphical designers view.
It is the graphical designers that can make skins with an "edge"
With odd names of the bitmaps and editing of xml files, there will not be many good designs.
It will take to much effort to make a skin design.

Advisor will when it is ready allow "ThemePacks". Perhaos you saw the BAT files that will create complete skins or theme packs.

We will see what will come out of this.....there might be no interest at all to make designs base on the Advisor skin. I will make some skindesigns....and keep the sub skins "alive". Maybe I will add some plugin skins also. I mostly use the recording function of GBPVR.

[Old Dog]

We have different views on things.

I believe our views are mostly the same.

My goal is to make skinning as easy as possible from the graphical designers view.
It is the graphical designers that can make skins with an "edge"
With odd names of the bitmaps and editing of xml files, there will not be many good designs.
It will take to much effort to make a skin design.

If you do not realize that I agree with this one hundred percent, then I must have done a poor job of expressing myself in my previous post.

Advisor will when it is ready allow "ThemePacks". Perhaos you saw the BAT files that will create complete skin or theme packs.

Just so you are not suprised, please refer to this post, dated 12/18/2005, on "SkinPacks" which is a goal I have been working toward.
http://forums.gbpvr.com/showpost.php?p=7...stcount=27

I will not change the names to the ones that you have choosen for AM.

Who loses?

[MixMan]

You wrote that you are not satisfied with the namnes you use, but it is too late to change them now, because of end user reasons. I think that your AM might be in the beginning of the development, if you could do do it all over again. Somewhere down the development of thing you usually com to that point, when you think, I should have done it this way instead.

I am not 100% satisfied with the namnes either, because the "rules" are not consitent. I changed the names of the "listbars" yesterday. I had used "focus" and "no_focus"......mainly because I saw that naming in the BlueMCE2 skin. The Sub standard is "normal" and "selected" so thats what I renamed them to. So I will not use Hi, Low, Focus or NoFocus or any other name that is similar to "Selected"
Yesterday I added a text defenition for the selected listbars in FM Radio and Net Radio, I gave the it the name StationNameSelected

I am willing to change all the names that I have used, but they must be better than I or you have now.
But it should be in the spirit of Subs "name rules"....in order to have consistency with skin tags.

We might have the same "goal" but we have different views on how to get there. Fast and easy overview of things is what I want.
Perhaps You, Gruskada and I can meet somewhere down the line, with a version 1 or 2 of the stuff that we are doing.

There are a couple of things that would like "my system" to do that cant be done, that Gruskadas tool would be possible to do.

1. Positioning of the "ScreenName"
2. Set start position of buttons in the Y direction.
3. Have "userdefined" NamedColors beeing used for eg Popup Backgrounds.

On why Background.PNG ?
When I think I'm done with the BaseSkin.xml and all the Sub menus skin.xmls I plan to make a 1366x768 or 1028x768 version of the skins. Upscaling from 720x480 to a higher resolution makes everything so "blurry"
JPG has a high compression, so backgrounds with a texture might look "blocky" on a high resolution skin, but might look good an a standard plasma. My friend has a plasma and he complained over that when he got a 32" LCD the other day.
So I think that using PNG is better for future picture quality.

[gruskada]

AM had to define some standard names and locations for a few files. I personally do not like some of these names but they are already in use at end user installations. Should these names be changed, it would cost somebody, it may even break something somewhere. My own desire to rename some of these files in not compelling enough reason to actually do it. Neither is your desire to use different names.

This does get tricky, but I think end users will forgive you if you provide them with a better product, and clear instructions on what to do to make something work. However, I certainly don't understand all the details of Appearnace Manager, so I may be talking out of place here. Anyway, to add another element to the mix, we've got McBainUK's GBPVR UIElements tool that's got it's own naming schemes as well, though I'mk not sure how much these would interefere with any of your projects...

Somewhere down the development of thing you usually com to that point, when you think, I should have done it this way instead.

I've come to that realization about 5 times during the dev. of SkinTools :-). I'm still learning .NET, design patterns, etc., so I know that comes with the territory, but anyway, I'm still in pre-alpha, so I've had the luxury of being able to gut what I've done and started over again without having to worry about any consequences.

I am willing to change all the names that I have used, but they must be better than I or you have now.
But it should be in the spirit of Subs "name rules"....in order to have consistency with skin tags.

FYI, SkinTools won't care what you've named things as far as changing an existing skin. The first thing you do when you open the app is to select a skin as a template to work from, so it uses those names to start with, but they can be changed. I was thinking (for a future version) about having a compliance tester, so you could run a tool from a menu that determines if a skin will work with Appearance Manager, for instance. This is really a big project itself, and one that I wouldn't even want to start until we get naming schemes hammered out.

We might have the same "goal" but we have different views on how to get there. Fast and easy overview of things is what I want.
Perhaps You, Gruskada and I can meet somewhere down the line, with a version 1 or 2 of the stuff that we are doing.

I'm all for that. In about a month or so, I'm hoping to release a "proof-of-concept" version of SkinTools that just lets you work with "Main Menu". Hopefully, I'll get lots of feedback from there, and I'll make any necessary changes.

There are a couple of things that would like "my system" to do that cant be done, that Gruskadas tool would be possible to do.

1. Positioning of the "ScreenName"
2. Set start position of buttons in the Y direction.
3. Have "userdefined" NamedColors beeing used for eg Popup Backgrounds.

I'm not sure about these. For #1, I assume you're talking about a tag like this in a composite image?

<DrawText text="Net Radio" loc="5,5" size="160,120" textStyle="ScreenName"...

If so, then yes, SkinTools will be able to reposition this by letting the user move the <DrawText> element around the screen within the "Composite Image Editor".

2. Buttons are just composite images as well, so SkinTools can (um, will be able to) handle this. Buttons in the main menu are grouped together, so you can set whether they are horizontally or vertically grouped, and specify the spacing in-between buttons. But SkinTools will give you complete control over all of the attributes in the <SpecialElement Name="Buttons"...> tag. (I've got about 60% of this one coded already)

3. I'll have to look into this one. I haven't looked at Popups at all yet...

The bottom line for me is that I want SkinTools to be flexable, and I will gladly work with anybody who has a tool that can complement SkinTools (and vice versa), as long as it doesn't restrict SkinTools flexability.

gruskada

[McBainUK]

Anyway, to add another element to the mix, we've got McBainUK's GBPVR UIElements tool that's got it's own naming schemes as well, though I'mk not sure how much these would interefere with any of your projects...

The elements are only used in plugins / mixmans work seems to be (at the moment) centred around the main gbpvr screens.

I wouldnt call it 'naming schemas'. I just called them names that would make sense when a plugin developer is looking at the skin file. ALL element image names can be set by the individual plugin developer, so in the future if the image for a selected item in a list should be named funkyDoSelectorItemImage (example ) then the plugin writers would be best to follow the rules and call set that as the name inside their plugin.

[MixMan]

I have now released the AdVisor Tutorial Skins in the Wiki/Skin Development
http://gbpvr.com/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Development/Skin