Community skin project

[Old Dog]

Reboot,

If we can't eliminate skin.xml files, the next best thing might be to reduce their size, or number of lines of xml code.

[MixMan]

Fatman_do and Old Dog. I have stated my intentions and what I am going to do.
What do you want ... more exactly?

I understand what you are saying, and I agree.
All plugin developers are making a Blue skin now.
I would like to see an complete image base skin, where the plugin skins have a similar design. BlueMCE2 is a good start.....to adjut the designs and narrow down the common images and move plugin unique images to the plugin skin directory.
Then it is easier to change the common images to get a simialr design as the "core" skin.

[Fatman_do]

Fatman_do and Old Dog. I have stated my intentions and what I am going to do.
What do you want ... more exactly?

I understand what you are saying, and I agree.
All plugin developers are making a Blue skin now.
I would like to see an complete image base skin, where the plugin skins have a similar design. BlueMCE2 is a good start.....to adjut the designs and narrow down the common images and move plugin unique images to the plugin skin directory.
Then it is easier to change the common images to get a simialr design as the "core" skin.

I am in agreement with you are saying, to a point. Does that solve the problem?

Somewhat.

Your proposals right now only really help BlueMCE2 and BaseSkin, and Chameleon to a lesser degree. I have no problems with an image based skin, mine takes advantage of that more than any other skin, so I would like that.

I have an idea "cooking" and I need to figure out how to express it. If what I am thinking can be accompished, and made to work, within a short time it could change things quite a bit. Of course all my ideas are easy to say and a ton of work to do or impossible.

I will in a few minutes try to compile my idea in the next post.

[reboot]

I do understand that plugins may require their own skin.xml
This is what I'm trying to move away from.
If the plugin adhered to BaseSkin.xml code for appearance only, then changing a colour or font in BaseSkin.xml changes the colour or font in everything.
If that standard was in place, the next step would be towards an image based skin, call it the "Community" Blue, as opposed to the "Stock" Blue.
If plugins adhered to the Community Blue images (buttons etc.), then changing an (button) image changes the (button) image in all modules, so one would not have to skin each plugin separately.

@ MixMan:

to adjut the designs and narrow down the common images and move plugin unique images to the plugin skin directory.
Then it is easier to change the common images to get a simialr design as the "core" skin.

Exactly! And plugin images should be named so anyone can tell what it is.
Image1 doesn't say much.
MainButtonOn says much more.
Follow Sub's xml coding example, and give things their proper names, so anyone attempting a skin or plugin can reference a common set of images with corresponding names, and thus reduce the number of extraneous images and xml code needed to keep a consistent look to the whole package.

Yes, we all like the look we can get with image based buttons and backgrounds, and even popup backgrounds, but things get bloated very quickly. I think if something can be done with xml, then it probably should. If you just can't get the right look with xml, then include an optimized image.
One example is a certain skin with a popup background. The actual size need not be 720x480 (or whatever it is). It's a basic bordered background. It could be done with xml, or an image of 72x48 pixels, which when expanded to fit the xml sizing, looks exactly the same as the large one, but at less than 1 / 100th the bytes.

[daphatty]

I'm not trying to offend anyone, but I can see why sub abandoned the last attempt at standardizing the skin. Admittedly, you guys have gotten further along in the process but at times it seems that you are talking past one another.

Fatman_do and Old Dog. I have stated my intentions and what I am going to do.
What do you want ... more exactly?

I am in agreement with you are saying, to a point. Does that solve the problem?

Somewhat.

See what I mean?

I think sub needs to a) take everything you guys have deliberated on and make a final decision on the direction of this effort or b) delegate that task to someone else. Otherwise, you guys are just running in circles...

Just an observation.

[Fatman_do]

Ok, this is one of those thing that "hit" me. This is another "shooting from the hip" moment on my part.

Reading every oppinion and idea, I listed all the pluses and all the negatives in my head. Reboot's latest comment got me thinking. His idea is crazy, it will not work........

Why?

Time for some Fatman_do alter ego talk:

[COLOR="YellowGreen"]
Plugins need compostion within their own "structure", a specific skin file.
[/COLOR]

I agree. Ok so........What is baseskin.xml used for?

[COLOR="YellowGreen"]
A way to list common things.[/COLOR]

Do we do that now?

[COLOR="YellowGreen"]
No. Somethings. Maybe a textstyle here, button definition there.[/COLOR]

Why don't we do more?

[COLOR="YellowGreen"]
Because I need these buttons to look like this, I need these ListViews to look like that, I need list selections to look one way, icon selectors another.......[/COLOR]

How do we do that?

[COLOR="YellowGreen"]
Use all images that can be swapped out![/COLOR]
No, I wan't to use xml colors!
I wan't to use a mixture of both!

So why don't you?

[COLOR="YellowGreen"]
Because we can't! Each skin positions everything and they need to be specific to that skin. I can't have in baseskin, "Draw this listview here and this size and this way (image, or xml). It won't work with all plugins.[/COLOR]

Why don't you change that then?
[COLOR="YellowGreen"]
Change what? I just said each skin may need to be unique. You cannot have every plugin have the same structure and layout. That is a bad idea for many plugins.[/COLOR]

I didn't say change that.
[COLOR="YellowGreen"]
What do you mean? You just did. You said have every skin follow the structure and layout provided by baseskin.xml.[/COLOR]

No, I orignally said Plugins need compostion within their own "structure", a specific skin file.
[COLOR="YellowGreen"]
Ok, now you lost me. How do I get each plugin to draw things want in differnt places using baseskin.xml?[/COLOR]

You don't.
[COLOR="YellowGreen"]
Come on now![/COLOR]

Can you someday make it so each plugin says "Draw this listview here" "Draw this list selector here."?
[COLOR="YellowGreen"]
We already do that! What is your point![/COLOR]

You never asked baseskin.xml, "What do I use for a list graphic"
Your skin file tells it to draw a listview over x, down y, this size. Why don't you ask baseskin "What does this listview look like?" Have baseskin.xml say, "For list boxes, use this for a graphic (an image or xml code, it doesn't matter)".

Have baseskin.xml say "For a selected list item, draw ..\whatever.png".
"For a poup box, use DrawRoundedRect, this color, with this border".

So your plugin says "I am going to draw a list, with this size, this location, with these things in it. Now I just need to make what that list look like what baseskin.xml told me."

I know I didn't give details on specifics, I don't know how to word it in the correct plugin-program "speak". I don't know if it is possible. I know it doesn't fix things now. Could it fix things in the future?

(Edit: This is putting that idea into some kind of code method that is fictional)

Baseskin.xml:

Code:

<ListViewBackground>[color=Blue]<DrawImage filename="..\resources\Listview.png"/>[/color]</ListViewBackground>
<PopUpBackground>[color=Blue]<DrawRoundedRect radius="5" borderWidth="2" borderColor="White" fillColor="Black"/>[/color]</PopUpBackground>
<[B]ListItemNormal[/B]>[color=Blue]<DrawImage filename="..\resources\ListItemNormal.png"/>[/color]</ListItemNormal>

ect. you get the point.

plugin skin .xml:

Code:

<CompositeImage name="ListViewNormalItem" size="500,30">            
    <Element name="[B]ListItemNormal[/B]" loc="3,3" size="494,24"/>
    <DrawText text="@title" loc="5,4" size="390,25" textStyle="ListViewItems" align="Left"/>
    <DrawText text="@lastRecordingDate" loc="5,4" size="495,25" textStyle="ListViewItems" align="Right"/>
</CompositeImage>

[sub]

I'm not trying to offend anyone, but I can see why sub abandoned the last attempt at standardizing the skin.

yep

[Fatman_do]

I'm not trying to offend anyone, but I can see why sub abandoned the last attempt at standardizing the skin. Admittedly, you guys have gotten further along in the process but at times it seems that you are talking past one another.


See what I mean?

I think sub needs to a) take everything you guys have deliberated on and make a final decision on the direction of this effort or b) delegate that task to someone else. Otherwise, you guys are just running in circles...

Just an observation.

This post and Reboot's post before that were made while I was typing mine. I cannot and do not disagree that it seems all three of us are pulling in different directions. I tried to "bow" out to encourage others to chime in. I understand that many would like to, but don't really have anything they might feel is specific in nature because they don't know anything about skinning.

Have you read Mixman's proposal document? Did it you understand what it says? Or whas it confusing and you don't know what this technical stuff is?

I am as guilty as anyone trying to get "My way" to be the "way", but when I posted I wanted to look more at the mechanics and the baseskin.xml file, that is what I did. Notice my thoughts right above sub's post. "Somehow" if a plugin could just ask baseskin.xml "This list background I am drawing. What do I use? Xml code, an image, or nothing?"

That sounds like an ideal solution. I have no idea if it could work. It probably does not work now.

When I said I was sharpening Occam's Razor (fixed wiki link), I meant I was going to look at every idea and throw out any suggestion that favored one skinning practice over another.

I then went to the wiki and downloaded 3 skin's NOT done by the "Gang of 3".

Oliba, Flat Blue, and one of TipStir's (media_center_g005A)

If I were to submit one plugin skin file and one baseskin.xml file change that could work with all 3, what would it be?

I took the weather plugin (it is quite popular with screen shots) and looked at what can I do to it. I looked at those three skin's and looked at their baseskin.xml file to see what is going on there.

I have ideas, but I need to flesh things out. If I suggest a change, I damn well WANT to make sure it my skin is impacted the same as or MORE than any other skin. I can overcome any change. That is not a problem. I want to think of a solution that does not benefit only skins which use AM. I do not want to think of a solution that only benefits BlueMCE2 and BaseSkin. I especially do NOT want a solution that only benefits both ideas in one skin! (You guessed it, mine.)

So that is what I am trying to do. Get the weather plugin to look presentable in those three skins. I am looking at all proposals, and trying to see where they fit into this.

If Mixman and Old Dog would like to see how their ideas work with the same situation, that would be great. They know what their ideas are better than me.

I agree with you, the circle is spinning and spinning and getting nowhere.

Anyone else who knows a little about skinning, take a look at those three skins and the weather plugin. What ideas jump out at you?

[MixMan]

Remember that this is all about hot to get plugins to work with our skins.... in an easy way.

I think we all 3 Old Do, Fatman_do and I have to be preared to make changes in our skins and plugins to get a good final solution, where a plugin is directy compatible with our skins.

I am prepared to change image names and locations....for the BaseSkin and other good ideas might come up that needs other changes.

A question to Old Dog. approx how many pixels i Y direction have you used for the "top bar" in the skin effects?

I have used approx 65 pixels for the "top bar" title logo.
But there are not that many plugins that allows this "space"

How many pixels is needed for the overscan that TV out needs?

[pz1]

.... I think if something can be done with xml, then it probably should....

I strongly agree this should be the leading principle.