Does NPVR have a shot at taking the place of SageTV in 2012? Very big shoes to fill..

[mkanet]

SageTV has brought forth new Media Center standards over several generations and years of major software updates and plugins. It appears that sageTV technology was a little too good; and unfortunately Google acquired SageTV when it was ripe for the picking to use for their own future products.
http://www.androidme.org/news/google-acq...h-dvr.html

Due to this acquisition, sageTV users' core software development is uncertain. SageTV and it's plugins are self-sustained; with plugin development moving forward. However, the fact remains that new core feature development may not happen.

The reason I'm posting here is because when I look at NPVR, it reminds me of sageTV's functionality 4-5 years ago when it was still in its infancy. I consider NPVR the underdog, with lots of potential. I think that NPVR definitely has a shot (possibly better than Microsoft) at adopting the hundreds of sageTV users who are currently keeping their options open. I'm sure there will be several sageTV users lurking around to find a possible Next-generation Media Center solution that offers even more functionality than mentioned below. I wish NPVR the best of luck to be the #1 contender!

Anyway, I was looking through the various core features and plugins for NPVR on the new, comprehensive NPVR Wiki site, but don't see several "must-have" features. It looks like some of the features that are similar; but, still in it's initial stages and not wife-friendly as sageTV. For example, my wife can install, uninstall, disable plugins right in the living room with just a tiny remote control.

Here are some "must have" features that are either missing or needs to mature in NPVR in the core and/or plugins. There are several miscellaneous missing features I didnt mention, but I woudn't consider them as "must-have":

1. Native support for BD disc, ripped BD folder, and BD ISO playback. There are several HTPC enthusiasts who have large BD libraries in the form of ripped folders or ISO's. SageTV can playback BD discs, ripped folders, and even ISO's automatically and invisibly mounting/dismounting ISOs; and, best of all... can be played back on any client on the LAN; including sageTV hardware extenders (HD100, HD200, HD300). The only thing needed to do install Slysoft "Virtual CloneDrive" and the HTPC's enthusiasts' must-have tool, AnyDVD-HD (no configuration necessary).

2. HD audio (DTS-MA/HD and True-HD) is fully supported for bluray movies as long as Arcsoft audio filters are installed . All audio formats are fully supported via bitstreamed using sageTV hardware extenders.

3. Completely automated fanart (and respective metadata) download for TV episode banners, TV seasons (integrated into Program Guide, TV recordings, Upcoming Movies, and other plugins. You can "set-and-forget" it after installing the plugin. This is the most popular feature for sageTV; supported by all SageTV plugins, themes, sub-themes.

I realize NEWA Search plugin for NPVR offers fanart/metadata downloads; but it's just not near as nice as sageTV's

Many people with ripped Bluray & DVD folder/ISO/MKV libraries stored on NAS or local have full movie backgrounds and posters supported in XMBC/WMC MyMovies- style graphics via several plugins. SageTV users LOVE eye-candy!






4. Squeezebox client support. Native squeezebox client support for SiriusXM, Pandora, Slacker, LastFM, Itunes, Amazon, Napster, Spotify, and even local FM radio station playback on all clients; even hardware extenders. With artist artwork and biography, news, and music video playback/download for what's on radio.


5. Full object-oriented programming language "Studio" to make the GUI and plugins do anything plugin developers' heart's desire. It offers seamless integration with Java libraries. It's so easy, someone with no programming knowledge, like me, can make very basis; yet, very useful plugins and features.

6. Movie trailer playback (as previews for Bluray movies and recorded TV shows and movies.

7. R5000 and Firewire support for cableTV, DishNetwork, etc for full quality recordings (not lower quality "copies" from analog output of cable/satellite boxes. I have 4 R5000 tuners!

8. Local Music/Video browsing not confined to just OS folder structures. They can be sorted in various ways with artwork.

9. Hardware extenders (similar size to WD Live boxes) with FULL capabilities (plug n play in any room of the house via Wi-Fi or Ethernet).
http://sagetv.wikispaces.com/SageTV+HD+Theater+300

10. Plugin repository. All plugins developed by end users can be submitted to a plugin repository (sort of like an App Store); where plugins can be downloaded with only a simple TV remote control. NO MORE messy/tedious installations by downloading zip files via PC web browser, unzipping, configuring configuration files, etc. Plugin repository can even detect if there are plugin incompatibilities to prevent accidental problems. This was a fantastic idea that was implemented in sageTV 7.

11. Fully functional clients over Internet called "Placeshifter" clients. This is my favorite features. Without this, I can't watch CableTV & On Demand/Blu-ray/DVD Movies transcoded at DVD/HD quality, schedule/playback TV recordings or live TV, with all plugins/features enabled such as Radio, Music, Picture, etc.

12. Fully functional SageTV server and clients are available on all popular OS's: Windows XP/Vista/7, Mac OSX, Linux, Debian. This is IMO, what sets sageTV far ahead of the competition.

I'm not expecting for NPVR to magically add all these irreplaceable features immediately. But, hoping during the time that core sageTV development is stagnant (plugins are still moving foward), it will give NPVR time to start adding useful functionality such as these. SageTV users can probably keep their setups going well after 2012; but, eventually, sageTV users will most probably need to transition to a equal or better Media Center solution.

Keep up the great work NPVR!!! I'll be watching progress..

[sub]

I realise SageTV users have been left high and dry following the sale to Google, and I do hope NPVR might be a good option for SageTV users looking for alternatives. That said, NPVR is not SageTV, so it's not going to provide exactly the same feature set. I'm happy to make some changes to help ex-SageTV user settle in, but at the end of the day I can only do so much - NPVR is written by one guy in his spare time, so I have to be carefully where I spend (or waste) my available time.

NPVR is probably a good chunk of what most SageTV users need. In some areas it'll be weaker then SageTV. In other areas it'll be stronger (multi-record, multidec etc). For future features, I keep a pretty close eye on the features the community are asking for, and will consider anything requested (particularly those requests that are popular with the community).

Several of your "must-have" features are way off my radar though (not features my users have being asking for), so priorities aren't always going to be the same. If we start to get more ex-SageTV users around here though, then some of those features may become more commonly requested, and ultimately added to the app. ie, I'm not going to be coding towards features SageTV users will be needing in 2012. I'll be coding towards the features my user base are asking for, and hopefully there will be SageTV users in those ranks, then we'd probably see some those features being included. Also, there is a pretty good API, so you might find ex-SageTV users writing plugins and utilities to give additional functionality they'd like - and I'd certainly support them with this.

[mkanet]

Thanks for giving honest answers. It looks like I completely overlooked that NPVR is not a professional product.

It actually took years for a team of full time engineers to deliver the features sageTV has today. I had no idea there was only one person working part time on NPVR! I'm glad to know NPVR users are content with what they have. I'm affraid it doesnt look like something typical sageTV users would be able to use seriously; especially those with multiple hardware extenders.

[sub]

I wouldnt say it's not a professional product, just that it isnt a commerical product. I think it's pretty damn good. I think it'd be pretty close to what most SageTV users would seriously require, and the gaps that are left might not be a deal breaker for them (at least in the short term).

I'm affraid it doesnt look like something typical sageTV users would be able to use seriously; especially those with multiple hardware extenders.

Unfortunately extenders is a poor example. NPVR/GBPVR has had extenders longer than SageTV has, and supports them pretty well. It works with the MediaMVP, Popcorn Hour A-100/110, EGreat 34a and some other clones. You get the same NPVR UI, ability to play your video/music/pictures, watch live tv etc. NPVR is probably a closer fit to what SageTV users want from any extender than any other software (MythTV, Mediaportal, etc).

[mvallevand]

I have to disagree with you mkanet, I think sub can create a base as solid and professional as Jeff and the SageTV LLC group did and on top of it he is much more accessible. What you may not know is that sub had to rewrite NextPVR from scratch because like SageTV the old product GB-PVR was licensed to another company. GB-PVR was on par with SageTV at the time and so it has been a frustrating year as a NextPVR user, but I was not willing to stagnate (like SageTV users will have to do) and I want to participate because I also looking at 2012 and beyond and I think with the next few releases NPVR users will start to surpass GB-PVR and SageTV.

Unfortunately the re-write meant all skins and plugins had to be redone. Many developers and skin designers didn't follow to NPVR so it does look pretty thin right now. I have written a few NPVR plugins myself and I am 100% sure that the plugins and skins that you showed us could easily be developed using the API and skin language in NPVR. I have written CLI programs for Slimserver and I don't happen to like the interface or I would had done it myself.

I am also the author of the extender clients for NPVR and yes NPVR does support extenders, just not the HDx00. In fact the only reason I don't support them is that SageTV said no when I asked.

However you and the small number of R5000 users who really relied on SageTV are going to being especially hard to convince about the merits of any other programs but I think NPVR will be there for other SageTV users in 2012.

Martin

[mkanet]

It's not the extenders themselves... its you can do on them such as Bluray playback; XMBC/MyMovies style. Plus clients aren't limited to just at home or one OS. I probably didnt word my first post the best way. But, it's pretty clear what it can and cant/wont do; which is all I was interested in.

...Unfortunately extenders is a poor example. NPVR/GBPVR has had extenders longer than SageTV has, and supports them pretty well. It works with the MediaMVP, Popcorn Hour A-100/110, EGreat 34a and some other clones. You get the same NPVR UI, ability to play your video/music/pictures, watch live tv etc. NPVR is probably a closer fit to what SageTV users want from any extender than any other software (MythTV, Mediaportal, etc).

[sub]

Ok. Good luck finding some other software that is closer to meeting your exact needs. I suspect you find you'll need to relax your requirements a bit to find an alternative app. NPVR is not SageTV. MythTV is not SageTV. MediaPortal is not SageTV. None of these were trying to build the same app as you have been using, so they're not going to give you the exact same functionality as you've been using. They will be worse than SageTV in some places, and better in others.

[sub]

For the record, these are some example screens that you get on the extender. I dont think they're that different from the screenshots you've shown above.

[imilne]

1. Native support for BD disc, ripped BD folder, and BD ISO playback.

Was this with menu support or just main movie playback? The latter is likely to be possible in NPVR, possibly using the LAV filters.

2. HD audio (DTS-MA/HD and True-HD) is fully supported for bluray movies as long as Arcsoft audio filters are installed . All audio formats are fully supported via bitstreamed using sageTV hardware extenders.

Again, this should be possible as far as a proper PC is concerned. Not so sure on extenders though.

3. Completely automated fanart (and respective metadata) download

I'm working on a plugin that supports additional fanart and metadata etc, although there's no automation yet. I'm sure there will be eventually though.

Iain

[dgeezer]

I used GBPvr for several years before going to SageTV. I think I am a fairly typical, and not terribly technical user. I am a carpenter by trade and can't program much past a batch file....

I am considering coming back to nPVR now that SageTV has been sold. For my usage only a few of mkanet's "must haves" really apply, and quite a few are provided by the user community and not SageTV core functionality. Also, the screenshots shown are not the standard ui, but a user plugin....

I left GBpvr for the SageTV hardware extenders. My original GBPvr setup consisted of a backend server and 2 mvp's. It worked great. Then along came digital high def TV. I tried to get a popcorn hour unit working as an extender and failed. What the heck is telnet??? Anyway, SageTV with their fully integrated plug and play extenders fit the bill. 2 extenders and the software license was actually cheaper than building 2 pc clients and dealing with all the codec issues I seemed to always have.

Here is my "must have" List.

1. Absolutely reliable recording of my family's favorites.

2. Comskip support. I don't see how Google will allow this to remain a part of SageTV if they do keep the program around. We like this not just for auto skipping commercials but also because it divides shows into chapters. My wife can watch say "American Idol" and then skip to the 2 or 3 decent performances to share with me.

3. Extenders that are fairly simple to configure. Also, a way to make it impossible, for my wife to get the extender out of nPVR and into some unrecognized screen or program. Belive me, she'll find a way...

4. Plugin and skin support. The plug-in repository as implemented in SageTV is a huge step forward from the old plug-in download and install model. It really is about as simple as adding or removing an app from my android phone.

5. Access to online content. We currently use the Playon plugin which provides hulu support.

I think nPVR can provide all of this. Right now I am not too motivated to switch, but I really don't see how this purchase by google will be a good thing in the long run.