Too many skins, too many options, too many plugins...

[daphatty]

Regarding Ease of Use - I can tell you from experience that more XML means more uselessness to the lay person. I tried to teach myself how to skin and was quickly discouraged when I couldn't get alignments and text layouts to work right. I've programmed in C and C++ so it wasn't like I was reading Japanese but editing XML was really my undoing. Especially since the change I wanted to make was minor.

If you want to make it easy for Joe user to tailor a skin to his/her liking then get away from XML (or keep it from the user) as much as you can.

Regarding difficulty skinning plugins - I think it is clear that plugin writers will need to decide upon and adhere to specific standards so that their plugins can be made widely available. The Xrecord resolution limitation now threatens the longevity of the Xrecord plugin. If skinners can't/won't support a plugin then what good is the plugin?

Personally, I've stopped using several plugins recently due to lack of support in my skin of choice. It might be useful to poll the community about which they prefer, a basic interface with enhanced functionality or the enhanced interface with basic functionality. My bets are on the latter.

Regarding plugin/skin support for new GBPVR releases - This one seems like a no brainer to me. Once testing has completed, Sub should give you guys a few days to "catch up" before public release. (This means no changes to the code Sub! ) Yes, it drags things out a little but at least more skins and plugins will be ready on release day.

Sometimes plug-in developers post their source code. Skin developers could do the same, post their .psd files, or whatever.

Regarding compatibility - Old Dog sums it up quite well. If you guys intend to retire/abandon your projects, the least you could do is post your source code/files to the wiki. I know you can't force people to but a blatant encouragement never killed anyone.


My 2 cents...

[Fatman_do]

This approach gaurantees that we will be editing xml files forever. BTW, since I'm gonna have to edit these lines of code, I really don't care if they draw image files or draw rectangles. Its all xml to me!

Personally, I'm not sure that you have accomplished anything here.

Sometimes plug-in developers post their source code. Skin developers could do the same, post their .psd files, or whatever.

"Source Pics" for skins that use .psd files would be nice, those images can also be a learning tool for someone like me who only can follow really tutorials.

There is nothing in what I am advocating that eliminates your ideas of a single static image. That is something that can still be used if you, myself, or other skinners wish.

Under your model, how would a new plugin fit in with a custom skin with no graphical images supplied by a plugin author?

[Old Dog]

It might be useful to poll the community about which they prefer, a basic interface with enhanced functionality or the enhanced interface with basic functionality. My bets are on the latter.

Please spoon-feed this one too me, I suspect its important, but I don't understand.

Regarding plugin/skin support for new GBPVR releases - This one seems like a no brainer to me. Once testing has completed, Sub should give you guys a few days to "catch up" before public release. (This means no changes to the code Sub! ) Yes, it drags things out a little but at least more skins and plugins will be ready on release day.

Being the proud owner of one of those mythical Subway Passes, I had the opportunity to update and post Plain Jane the night before the last GBPVR release.

-David

[sub]

Regarding plugin/skin support for new GBPVR releases - This one seems like a no brainer to me. Once testing has completed, Sub should give you guys a few days to "catch up" before public release. (This means no changes to the code Sub! ) Yes, it drags things out a little but at least more skins and plugins will be ready on release day.

Most skin developers have a few weeks with the pre-releases prior to new GB-PVR releases - but I cant remember the last time any of them took advantage of this and actually had an updated skin ready for release day.

Being the proud owner of one of those mythical Subway Passes, I had the opportunity to update and post Plain Jane the night before the last GBPVR release.

To be fair, you usually get much longer access pre-releases, but yes with maintenance releases you may only get a couple of days.

[Old Dog]

Under your model, how would a new plugin fit in with a custom skin with no graphical images supplied by a plugin author?

I would suggest that the plug-in author provides graphics that are compatable with the look and feel of the graphics set shipped with the standard GBPVR skin and that he references those graphics in his xml code. (Note some naming convention might apply, tbd).

By the way, I see no pressing need to replace Blue's look and feel or any need to improve sub's unskinnned plugin fallback implementation (actually, I'm impressed). At best, changing these should be very low priority.

[Fatman_do]

Regarding Ease of Use - I can tell you from experience that more XML means more uselessness to the lay person. I tried to teach myself how to skin and was quickly discouraged when I couldn't get alignments and text layouts to work right. I've programmed in C and C++ so it wasn't like I was reading Japanese but editing XML was really my undoing. Especially since the change I wanted to make was minor.

If you want to make it easy for Joe user to tailor a skin to his/her liking then get away from XML (or keep it from the user) as much as you can.

Nothing being discussed here helps with many skinning issues with various plugin (this goes along with what you state later). Sometimes elements are hard coded and the skin file leaves you to beleive that they may not be. If the layout is desired to be changed, then xml tweaking has to be done. No other way around it. Moving images (either in the xml or in a image overlays) is easier than manipulating the content in most cases.

Regarding difficulty skinning plugins - I think it is clear that plugin writers will need to decide upon and adhere to specific standards so that their plugins can be made widely available. The Xrecord resolution limitation now threatens the longevity of the Xrecord plugin. If skinners can't/won't support a plugin then what good is the plugin?

Personally, I've stopped using several plugins recently due to lack of support in my skin of choice. It might be useful to poll the community about which they prefer, a basic interface with enhanced functionality or the enhanced interface with basic functionality. My bets are on the latter.

Newer plugins have been (from a skinner's point of view) easier than many of the older ones. You have to also realise that plugin author's time is limited and they probably would like to make improvements, but are unable to. That is what this discussion is bringing to the table. Better communication and tools between skinners and plugin authors will improve these problems over time.

Regarding plugin/skin support for new GBPVR releases - This one seems like a no brainer to me. Once testing has completed, Sub should give you guys a few days to "catch up" before public release. (This means no changes to the code Sub! ) Yes, it drags things out a little but at least more skins and plugins will be ready on release day.

That works for GBPVR, but not other plugins. Reven is putting his new releases through a beta phase which allows us skinners to get a glimpse of what is coming up. The problem is, users want to use those betas with the skin of their choice. I think what I am trying to get at here is a "band aid" method that will satisfy users and ease the skinner's job.

Regarding compatibility - Old Dog sums it up quite well. If you guys intend to retire/abandon your projects, the least you could do is post your source code/files to the wiki. I know you can't force people to but a blatant encouragement never killed anyone.


My 2 cents...

I agree with this as well. If a project is being abandoned, it should be noted as such. If the sources are there or not, that is a matter of choice (open source is not everyone's desire), but at least you would know if it is a dead project.

[sub]

unskinnned plugin fallback implementation (actually, I'm impressed)

Ta.

Now if only all the plugin developers would make the one line change needed to support this mechanism. All the built in screens support, as do several plugins made by others - but unfortunately not all.

[McBainUK]

Now if only all the plugin developers would make the one line change needed to support this mechanism. All the built in screens support, as do several plugins made by others - but unfortunately not all.

Which line would this be then?

What are your thoughts so far on this sub. Lots of ideas flying about.

[Fatman_do]

Most skin developers have a few weeks with the pre-releases prior to new GB-PVR releases - but I cant remember the last time any of them took advantage of this and actually had an updated skin ready for release day.


To be fair, you usually get much longer access pre-releases, but yes with maintenance releases you may only get a couple of days.

I didn't know this was availible to a skinners. I thought just some plugin developers did.

The core of GBPVR really isn't that much an issue now, mostly it is "3rd party" plugins.

[Fatman_do]

Which line would this be then?

What are your thoughts so far on this sub. Lots of ideas flying about.

You developers need to chime in. Don't let us skinners drive the boat. We only can work with what is given to us.