ATSC 3.0 support - HDHomeRun Flex 4K

[sub]

I'm a new user really, and experimenting with what's available. So if I'm using ATV4K I search their store and install what I find. There is a NextPVR app returned and that's what I'm playing with. If that isn't supposed to be used then why is it in the app store?

Of course the app works - we were just telling you it wont have audio because it doesn't support AC-4.

....
Now that strongly suggests the same possibility of getting sound from NextPVR if only I could select audio track #2. The NextPVR GUI doesn't have an SAP button on it.

Sorry, that is not the case. The playback components used in the NextPVR ATV app does not support AC-4. It's not just a case of selecting the right audio track.

[DSperber]

Still, even if it won't make any difference, can you please tell me where/how I do something to select "audio track" as I might want to do for an ordinary ATSC 1.0 program?

In the absence of an actual "SAP" button somewhere physically on the GUI that I could push (as there is on the HDHR app interface), how (if at all) is SAP selection implemented in NextPVR... by client. If there is documentation or FAQ somewhere, please point me to it:

(1) I read that "long press on the ATV4K remote in the NextPVR app version 3.1 and newer is supposed to facilitate choosing audio track.

I tried that on my ATV4K and sure enough got two button presented on the screen, one showing "audio track" and the other showing "subtitle" I believe I was being prompted to navigate to "audio track" (which I did, and it lit up in white background) and then I pushed OK on the remote. The two buttons then disappeared, to be replaced by new text: "audio stream". And now everything was locked up.

No remote buttons worked. Couldn't back-out. Couldn't navigate, or ENTER, or anything. App totally locked the entire ATV4K. I had to pull the power cord from the wall and reboot the device.

So, is this supposed to be working?

(2) How does the SAP function get performed on Windows NextPVR?

(3) How does the SAP function get performed on Shield Android?

[mvallevand]

SAP is more a through back to the analog era, now we select tracks because there can be more than two. For NextPVR is is one the link I directed to you https://github.com/emveepee/Testing/wiki...dReference earlier Ctrl-Y

I can't help you further on sub's Android and Apple apps, but if you need help selecting them on uidroid they are are also on the link and for Kodi the keyboard command are explained on the Kodi wiki.

Martin

[sub]

(1) I read that "long press on the ATV4K remote in the NextPVR app version 3.1 and newer is supposed to facilitate choosing audio track.

I tried that on my ATV4K and sure enough got two button presented on the screen, one showing "audio track" and the other showing "subtitle" I believe I was being prompted to navigate to "audio track" (which I did, and it lit up in white background) and then I pushed OK on the remote. The two buttons then disappeared, to be replaced by new text: "audio stream". And now everything was locked up.

No remote buttons worked. Couldn't back-out. Couldn't navigate, or ENTER, or anything. App totally locked the entire ATV4K. I had to pull the power cord from the wall and reboot the device.

So, is this supposed to be working?

Yes, it works here, via long press. (though I'm using DVB, not ATSC/ATSC3)

If you're trying it with Live TV, maybe try it while playing back a recording instead. If it has the same problem during recording playback, it may be related to it not understanding this type of audio track

(2) How does the SAP function get performed on Windows NextPVR?

Green key on remote, or Alt-G on keyboard. Or you can you right click and select and audio track from the context menu.

(3) How does the SAP function get performed on Shield Android?

There is no support for changing audio track on the NextPVR android app (Play Store app, not UiDroid app). (I can assure you it's not going to work with AC-4 though - this app decodes the audio in software, and there is no software decoder for AC-4 included with the software)

[DSperber]

(1) I read that "long press on the ATV4K remote in the NextPVR app version 3.1 and newer is supposed to facilitate choosing audio track.

So, is this supposed to be working?

Yes, it works here, via long press. (though I'm using DVB, not ATSC/ATSC3)

If you're trying it with Live TV, maybe try it while playing back a recording instead. If it has the same problem during recording playback, it may be related to it not understanding this type of audio track

(2) How does the SAP function get performed on Windows NextPVR?

Green key on remote, or Alt-G on keyboard. Or you can you right click and select and audio track from the context menu.

(3) How does the SAP function get performed on Shield Android?

There is no support for changing audio track on the NextPVR android app (Play Store app, not UiDroid app). (I can assure you it's not going to work with AC-4 though - this app decodes the audio in software, and there is no software decoder for AC-4 included with the software)

Just some followup on these items...

(1) Although the long-press method did not work when I was tuned to an ATSC 3.0 channel (with AC-4 audio), today I tried the long-press method while tuned to an ATSC 1.0 channel (with AC-3 audio). And sure enough it did work. The onscreen options were presented, and I could select what was noted as English or Spanish. But in actuality it was English 5.1 or English 2.0 as best I could determine. Certainly not Spanish for the second track.

So I just wanted to agree that even though choosing either of the AC-4 audio tracks is still not going to produce sound from the ATSC 3.0 channels, there does appear to be a fatal flaw in the function which does result in a total lockup of the ATV4K device if you happen to try this on an ATSC 3.0 channel. I think that should be prevented in software, because the consequence is that the device must be rebooted by pulling out and reinserting the power cord. And that's not really acceptable.

(2) Turns out the "green" button on the remote actually DID prompt the SAP dialog on Windows. But the remote I tried that with was the one included with the Linksys DMA2100 extender I use for Windows Media Center. And the four colored buttons are on that remote. And sure enough when I grabbed that remote and pushed the green button sure enough it worked as you predicted. 

However the other remote I have is like the original Microsoft MCE "silver" remote design that looks like this one. It has no four colored buttons on it.

Note that ALL of these, plus other 3rd-party remotes (like from HP, from many years ago when they made an extender) that are all designed to be compatible with Windows Media Center. So the basic layout buttons and keys are 100% universal and compatible. But the special implementation extra buttons (like with my DMA2100 remote that had a special purpose for the four colored buttons, as probably yours does as well), well I'm kind of surprised that your remote's green button apparently produces the same IR code as my DMA2100 remote does. Interesting.

(3) The absence of an SAP function for Shield is a problem, even for the ATSC 1.0 channels for which you really could support two audio tracks as you do with the other clients.


I still haven't settled on which streaming device and its NextPVR client I might end up using. I actually very much prefer the Guide and DVR functionality of NextPVR over the corresponding features of the HDHR app (e.g. you can actually cancel a recording in-progress, before it finishes its scheduled end... amazingly something you cannot to with HDHR!).

But on the other hand, the HDHR actually has a physical SAP button on its GUI which is a real plus. Also, it does deliver cloud-assisted transcoding of the AC-4 audio right now, which in the current absence of an available software AC-4 codec is at least a superior comprise than ZERO SOUND which is what NextPVR produces from ATSC 3.0 channels.

So, from an actual usability perspective, if I wanted to WATCH an OTA ATSC 3.0 channel for its superior 1080p video (e.g. NFL and sports on Fox, which is the only real relevant LA station currently in ATSC 3.0 as far as I'm concerned) I would choose HDHR so that I could get audio, and watch it through ATV4K or Shield Tube.

Otherwise, I might as well continue to use my existing Windows Media Center setup for its total support of cable channels as well as OTA ATSC 1.0 channels, all through one problem-free interface, and with 100% video and 100% DD2.0/DD5.1 sound. I have DMA2100 extenders around the house connected to the same HDTV's which have the streaming devices connected as well, so I have a complete range of options available to me.

Nevertheless, this has been a very productive first week with the Flex 4K and exploring HDHR and NextPVR. I did briefly also give Channels DVR a shot, but though it was highly touted I personally didn't agree entirely. Like with anything, some parts were good and some parts not so good. For sure it currently has zero support for ATSC 3.0 as best I could determine, so that meant is was off the table.

[mvallevand]

The Spanish designation is from the source, NextPVR can't control that. I am actually surprised that you need to hit the SAP button that often (AC-4 and other testing aside) don't most of your broadcasts in NextPVR come up with the principle audio track correctly?

If you have followed my posts on this thread, I have mentioned that there is PC based transcoding for AC-4 available in NextPVR should you need it.

Since you seem happy with obsolete tech WMC and the DMA2100's should be OK. Those boxes couldn't even do h264 so I skipped them back in the day.

Martin

[sub]

Honestly, you're about the only person that has seemed so worried about a SAP button. We've had years without anyone asking about this. For the most part its gonna play the default audio track, and for the vast majority of people, that is the track they want. This is especially true in North America, where pretty much everyone wants the default English track.

Europe is one part of the world where our users do have to deal with multiple languages. In that part of the world the MCE remotes (including the original silver one, have the four color buttons (since these buttons are used for teletext).

Ultimately, I know it's probably just because you're getting no audio that you're hoping it's something you can experiment with. If you had working working audio, you probably wouldn't be so worried about it.

I've asked SiliconDust if they'll let 3rd party apps like NextPVR use their cloud audio transcoding. Hopefully they'll come back to me on that. Otherwise the lack of AC-4 probably means NextPVR is non-starter for you.

[BrettB]

(1) Although the long-press method did not work when I was tuned to an ATSC 3.0 channel (with AC-4 audio), today I tried the long-press method while tuned to an ATSC 1.0 channel (with AC-3 audio). And sure enough it did work. The onscreen options were presented, and I could select what was noted as English or Spanish. But in actuality it was English 5.1 or English 2.0 as best I could determine. Certainly not Spanish for the second track.

As Martin told you, that "Spanish" label is coming from the broadcaster. And you will see that track labeled as "Spanish" in any other players that show the labeling from the broadcaster. For whatever reason, it seems that many (almost all?) broadcasters in the US are complacent (lazy) and don't bother to properly label their audio streams. Many were using their 2nd audio stream for Spanish, so initially labeled it that way. Then in the last few years, Descriptive Audio has become popular with US shows providing it, so the broadcasters have been transmitting it on that 2nd audio stream. But the didn't/don't bother to change the labeling. It is somewhat annoying, but it is totally the broadcasters' fault, not something that NextPVR is doing.

(3) The absence of an SAP function for Shield is a problem, even for the ATSC 1.0 channels for which you really could support two audio tracks as you do with the other clients.

I still haven't settled on which streaming device and its NextPVR client I might end up using. I actually very much prefer the Guide and DVR functionality of NextPVR over the corresponding features of the HDHR app (e.g. you can actually cancel a recording in-progress, before it finishes its scheduled end... amazingly something you cannot to with HDHR!).

Have you even tried the uidroid client on your Shield like we keep telling you to do? It should support selecting the audio track from any that are available. And, as I keep telling you, it will probably also support your ATSC 3.0 channels (both video & audio) natively.

But on the other hand, the HDHR actually has a physical SAP button on its GUI which is a real plus. Also, it does deliver cloud-assisted transcoding of the AC-4 audio right now, which in the current absence of an available software AC-4 codec is at least a superior comprise than ZERO SOUND which is what NextPVR produces from ATSC 3.0 channels.

So, from an actual usability perspective, if I wanted to WATCH an OTA ATSC 3.0 channel for its superior 1080p video (e.g. NFL and sports on Fox, which is the only real relevant LA station currently in ATSC 3.0 as far as I'm concerned) I would choose HDHR so that I could get audio, and watch it through ATV4K or Shield Tube.

HDHR's cloud-assisted transcoding is dependent upon having an Internet connection working and will take up Internet bandwidth. With NextPVR, if you want the ATSC 3.0 video with a transcoded audio track which would play on all your devices, we keep telling you that you should use an Extra device and have the transcoding done locally on the server. That way you aren't dependent upon an active Internet connection nor taking up Internet bandwidth.

[DSperber]

Fascinating. That's obviously why Linksys designed their own remote for the DMA2100 to also have those four colored general purpose (programmable) colored buttons!

Here is the actual remote (4 of them, just to future-proof myself) that I bought back in 2010. Obviously a less expensive model variant meant for US, that does not include the extra colored buttons since teletext is not really important here in the US.



Anyway, the green button (from my DMA2100 remote) actually DID work to bring up the SAP audio track dialog for the ATSC 1.0 channel. So I was able to see what was actually present.

Obviously I never normally would use SAP as I want English (which is normally played by default) and high-quality 5.1 audio if available. I'm never really looking for the second audio track.  Never have, and probably never will.

The only reason this whole SAP thing has come up, including the absence of a physical SAP button on the GUI (which would just make getting to that functionality universal for all clients, and much more direct than colored remote buttons or keyboard shortcuts or long-press on remote buttons or "*" on remotes, etc.) is because of this new "no audio" problem with the ATSC 3.0 channels in LA.

Of course you've now found the real cause of that major defect, which is the firmware problem in the Flex itself where the language of the audio tracks is not being delivered in the PMT metadata sent to the client, thus making it impossible for the client to figure out which audio track is really the proper one (i.e. matching the user's preferred language). So that's really the only reason I've been so concerned about getting to the SAP functionality, either through GUI button or some other way... in order to overcome the major defect which is the absence of sound when using audio track #1 by default due to the language firmware story. And, comedy of errors, by pure chance here in LA the broadcasters have apparently just place the English 5.1 audio in audio track #2, not #1. Might be different in other TV areas around the country.

Anyway, I'm looking forward to the upcoming firmware upgrade that hopefully will be pushed out soon, that addresses the fundamental audio track language (in the VCT element of the PMT?) that will straighten out all of this audio / no-audio confusion. And then I will never again care about SAP.

[mvallevand]

This is going in circles. I am pretty sure the Silicon Dust issue only in ATSC 3. and the only ATSC 3.0 client is uidroid You can select audio tracks with the long up in uidroid. In fact on your S21 it should use h/w decoding of AC-4

Martin