Too many skins, too many options, too many plugins...

[reboot]

I find that there are some really great skins you guys are making these days. I haven't had the time lately, to get into making my own custom one, which seems redundant anyhow, with the options available.
I'm looking for just that perfect mix, of colour, and functionality, that has the WAF and KAF, to become a "standard".
Sub's Blue has the functionality, but only with the officially released options.
Others have released updates to the "My" collection for some skins, and others have released updates to various other plugins. All great work, but there's not one complete skin, for all conceivable combinations.
The webcam plugin has some skins, but not others.
The X-Search (findfast) plugin has some.
You get the idea
Ideally, I'd like to see two or three complete skins, that covered all the options. I realize this is a huge amount of work, because every single plugin would have to be installed, and tested, and all the popup boxes, various colour schemes, etc., tested on all plugins.
I wish I had the time, as that seems to be my only resource that's in short supply.
Feedback welcome, especially with the new release today of 0.97.13

[Fatman_do]

I find that there are some really great skins you guys are making these days. I haven't had the time lately, to get into making my own custom one, which seems redundant anyhow, with the options available.
I'm looking for just that perfect mix, of colour, and functionality, that has the WAF and KAF, to become a "standard".
Sub's Blue has the functionality, but only with the officially released options.
Others have released updates to the "My" collection for some skins, and others have released updates to various other plugins. All great work, but there's not one complete skin, for all conceivable combinations.
The webcam plugin has some skins, but not others.
The X-Search (findfast) plugin has some.
You get the idea
Ideally, I'd like to see two or three complete skins, that covered all the options. I realize this is a huge amount of work, because every single plugin would have to be installed, and tested, and all the popup boxes, various colour schemes, etc., tested on all plugins.
I wish I had the time, as that seems to be my only resource that's in short supply.
Feedback welcome, especially with the new release today of 0.97.13

Feedback is always welcome, and is hard to come by. This goes not only for skinners, but plugin authors as well.

[MixMan]

I agree with you Reboot.

I dropped the plugins from the BaseSkin.....it is too much work to keep them updated.
Maintaining a skin is not that thrilling either. Torque is busy with other things, Dottore is working on new skins and don't have the time to maintain MCEBlue2.
So I guess most skins don't work with the latest plugins......except for Subs Blue skin.

I suggest a new skin standard for plugin developers. Lets call the skin "Standard" and kind of based on MCE Blue2, Subs BaseSkin file, the "SkinRoot" program or current skin in config.xml and FadMan_do's Skinplugin packages concept.
This would give the plugin designer the most freedom for the design and the end user will allways get a working plugin with the skin he preferres.

It should be skin with an XML design, but have graphics in the /resources directory. The Plugin skin will install itself to the current skin.

Plugin directory would be:
/skins
/Standard
/Plugin Name
/resources

The plugin skin installer could be a Batch file, WinRar exe file or a Nullsoft package. The plugin skin will allways install itself to the current skin root.

There are some text defenitions to be agreed on so plugin ski will be compatible with some skins.
Sub defined Background.jpg
Sub defined ButtonText
MixMan defined ButtonTextSelected
Sub defined ScreenName
Fatman_do defined ScreenNameShadow

...and there are more to discuss in plugin developers are interested.


I guess Fatman_do and I could cook up an example....for plugin developers.
Fatman_do is very good at documenting.

[Fatman_do]

I agree with you Reboot.

I dropped the plugins from the BaseSkin.....it is too much work to keep them updated.
Maintaining a skin is not that thrilling either. Torque is busy with other things, Dottore is working on new skins and don't have the time to maintain MCEBlue2.
So I guess most skins don't work with the latest plugins......except for Subs Blue skin.

I suggest a new skin standard for plugin developers. Lets call the skin "Standard" and kind of based on MCE Blue2, Subs BaseSkin file, the "SkinRoot" program or current skin in config.xml and FadMan_do's Skinplugin packages concept.
This would give the plugin designer the most freedom for the design and the end user will allways get a working plugin with the skin he preferres.

It should be skin with an XML design, but have graphics in the /resources directory. The Plugin skin will install itself to the current skin.

Plugin directory would be:
/skins
/Standard
/Plugin Name
/resources

The plugin skin installer could be a Batch file, WinRar exe file or a Nullsoft package. The plugin skin will allways install itself to the current skin root.

There are some text defenitions to be agreed on so plugin ski will be compatible with some skins.
Sub defined ButtonText
MixMan defined ButtonTextSelected
Sub defined ScreenName
Fatman_do defined ScreenNameShadow

...and there are more to discuss in plugin developers are interested.


I guess Fatman_do and I could cook up an example....for plugin developers.
Fatman_do is very good at documenting.

I would also suggest ButtonTextSelectedShadow, ButtonTextShadow, and Mainbackground.jpg

I suppose there could be opened up a "universal graphics standard" thread in the developers forum. With image names "standardized", those plugin skins should drop right in and at least look similar to a skin design with layout being the only difference. I have to go for the night so kick around ideas.

[MixMan]

It depends on how the plugin is written.

If Subs BaseSkin defenitions for button composite images are used
none of the ButtonText_XXXX are need, only ScreenNameShadow

Since it is a plugin, mainbackground.jpg is not needed.

I have started on a directory sample structure with BAT files.

I guess McBainUK is the right person to talk to since he made th GBPVRUIElements ?
Perhaps Jeff and Jorm could support a modified MCE Blue2 with not to much effort ?

[daphatty]

What this boils down to is standardization. All of you skin and plugin developers need to form a consortium and decide upon two important things.

First, you need to decide which skins (in addition to Blue) plugins will be REQUIRED to support. This mandatory support list should only consist of a few skins. This will make life easier for all of you. It will also deter the wannabe plugin developers from dropping in and bailing out shortly after their initial release.

Second, you need to decide which plugins the required skins will be REQUIRED to support. This mandatory support list will be much larger due to the sheer number of popular plugins. However, it will weed out the plugins that are no longer supported.

Now, determining which skins and plugins to make mandatory isn't going to be easy. Everyone is going to have an opinion about this skin or that plugin. The key is to get started somewhere and let the community push the process along. If you don't start, then you'll never get moving. There is already a baseline "mandatory" requirement for Sub's blue skin. What we need now is a Communitiy requirement.

My two cents...

[Fatman_do]

It depends on how the plugin is written.

If Subs BaseSkin defenitions for button composite images are used
none of the ButtonText_XXXX are need, only ScreenNameShadow

Since it is a plugin, mainbackground.jpg is not needed.

I have started on a directory sample structure with BAT files.

I guess McBainUK is the right person to talk to since he made th GBPVRUIElements ?
Perhaps Jeff and Jorm could support a modified MCE Blue2 with not to much effort ?

Actually none of the "Shadow" text styles need to be included. I had my head up my ass on that one. That is a design element that a skinner can add easy enough.

Without an entire "Standard" skin from the start, there would be little incentive to support this method wouldn't you think? This is where I was going with including elements for the main menu (mainbackground.jpg). This is not plugin related, but to the "Standard" skin in general.

What needs to be identified and standardized? The approach taken has to be such that it does not "break" any exsisting plugins. Keep in mind, quite a few plugins do not play well with baseskin.xml (they were written before this came into being). Sizes and locations in them are hard-coded if not themselves, but by surrounding elements.

The biggest help would be for plugin authors to provide "clean" and "logical" reference skins in the first place. There are several out there that include lines of code that are not used. This and better internal documentation would go a long way.

Sorry if I am confused and a little out of it. I should have my thinker recharged in the morning.

[Fatman_do]

What this boils down to is standardization. All of you skin and plugin developers need to form a consortium and decide upon two important things.

First, you need to decide which skins (in addition to Blue) plugins will be REQUIRED to support. This mandatory support list should only consist of a few skins. This will make life easier for all of you. It will also deter the wannabe plugin developers from dropping in and bailing out shortly after their initial release.

Second, you need to decide which plugins the required skins will be REQUIRED to support. This mandatory support list will be much larger due to the sheer number of popular plugins. However, it will weed out the plugins that are no longer supported.

Now, determining which skins and plugins to make mandatory isn't going to be easy. Everyone is going to have an opinion about this skin or that plugin. The key is to get started somewhere and let the community push the process along. If you don't start, then you'll never get moving. There is already a baseline "mandatory" requirement for Sub's blue skin. What we need now is a Communitiy requirement.

My two cents...

The first step is that obsolete plugins need to be identified. As far as manditory, that is a hard nut to crack. What determines maditory? For skins, there is 'Blue', then what?

A new 'Blue+' that is based on images instead of xml, yet looks nearly identical?

This will be a design that image based skinners can use, and would "drop in" well if the skin follows that structure. It does nothing for skins like Contour and Flat Blue-Hi Vis which are not image based. There are other skins in the middle as well.

Getting late. Brain hurts.

[reven]

First, you need to decide which skins (in addition to Blue) plugins will be REQUIRED to support. This mandatory support list should only consist of a few skins. This will make life easier for all of you. It will also deter the wannabe plugin developers from dropping in and bailing out shortly after their initial release.

speaking as a developer, the skin is one of the most annoying parts, i will only do the default skin myself. its just too annoying and takes too long to do any other skins (searching for graphics, making graphics, making icons etc).

[psycik]

speaking as a developer, the skin is one of the most annoying parts, i will only do the default skin myself. its just too annoying and takes too long to do any other skins (searching for graphics, making graphics, making icons etc).

I'm in a similar boat as reven, but I'll generally add the skin files in my plugins if I'll be using it (BlueMCE etc).

I'd be faily happy with looking at a standardised type skin, especially if we could get up to the media portal/meedio skin changing on the fly.