ATSC 3.0 support - HDHomeRun Flex 4K

[DSperber]

Just this week I bought a Silicon Dust HDHomeRun Flex 4K 4-tuner box, as the first few channels got rolled out in ATSC 3.0 here in Los Angeles last week. Tuners 0/1 in the F4K support both ATSC 1.0 and 3.0 channels, and tuners 2/2 support only ATSC 1.0 channels. For now the new ATSC 3.0 LA channels of interest to me are KTLA HD (105.1, with the ATSC 1.0 version being KTLA-DT on 5.1) and KTTV NX (111.1, with the ATSC 1.0 version being KTTV-DT on 11.1).

Currently I'm using Windows Media Center on a Win7 desktop HTPC, which uses an internal Ceton 6-tuner InfiniTV card (cablecard-enabled plus Motorola Digital Tuning Adapter for SDV, with Spectrum cable provider). I also have an internal Hauppauge 4-tuner Quad-HD OTA/ATSC card (only ATSC 1.0) fed from roof antenna. I had been using NextPVR v4 in my Win10 system (dual-boot on the same machine) with the Hauppauge Win10 drivers for the Quad-HD supporting OTA/ATSC while booted in Win10 on that machine. I have no concern for the Ceton cable tuner channels in Win10.

In support of the EPG Guide Data requirements of WMC I am using EPG123 (as a replacement for the Rovi source from MS, which replaced Zap2it some years ago). EPG123 requires a subscription to Schedules Direct where I have two channel lineups on my account: one for Charter cable and the second for local OTA. So naturally I configured NextPVR v4 in Win10 to also use Schedules Direct for the OTA channels available from the Hauppauge card (ATSC 1.0).

Note that WMC has no support for anything other than 720p/1080i MPEG-2 ATSC 1.0 source. Since WMC is dead there is no possibility of support for ATSC 3.0, hence my desire to explore other options as technology advances arrive.

In support of the new HDHR F4K tuner and ATSC 3.0 channels (which delivers video via HEVC rather than MPEG-2, and which delivers audio inside an AC-4 wrapper rather than AC-3) I've now upgraded NextPVR to v5. And I was very pleased to do a successful channel scan on the new tuners through NextPVR v5 which did indeed pick up the new ATSC 3.0 channels.

I also figured out from another forum thread how to facilitate manually migrating the "genre colorizations" from v4 over to v5 (where GUI tools for colorizing channels do not exist as they did in v4) by replacing the the v5 default EPG_GENRE table within npvr.db3 with the actual customized v4 version of the same table. So my TV Guide presentation using v5 now looks like my v4 presentation. All good. I do need to investigate presenting the "channel logos" in the Guide, rather than just the channel call sign but that's just cosmetic.

Unfortunately Schedules Direct does not yet have the new ATSC 3.0 channels included in the local OTA channel lineup I get, so for the time being there is "no data" to be shown. But I've opened a ticket with SD and I'm sure the new channel info (duplicated for ATSC 3.0 from the ATSC 1.0 version of that channel for at least the next 3-5 years) will be available before too long.

So that's where I am with regard to installation, configuration, and presentation, using NextPVR v5. TV Guide looks like this:




Now the next issue is CAN I PLAY ATSC 3.0 PROGRAMS using NextPVR v5? And the answer simply is: NO. Absolutely no audio and absolutely no video.

Using the HDHomeRun DVR on Win10 (server+Guide data, $35/year) and HDHomeRun App (client for Win10, ATV4K, Shield, Android and IOS, etc., free) available from Silicon Dust, I initially ran into a problem with the video player unable to decode the HEVC (1080p) video content of the new ATSC 3.0 channels. A helpful message was presented stating that this non-support for HEVC could be easily resolved by purchasing a non-free product from the MS Store which turned out to be the HEVC codec. It actually is sold as the "HEVC Video Extensions" and is priced at a very reasonable $0.99. And as soon as it got purchased and installed, sure enough the HDHomeRun app was able to present HEVC source 1080p video content in its TV player window.

Also, surprisingly or not, the HDHomeRun app was also able to handle the AC-4 audio in the ATSC 3.0 channels. I was still offered either DD+ 2.0 or 5.1 or Spanish, etc., which are all still imbedded inside the AC-4 wrapper. But the player was able to decode it so that I now had sound along with picture using the HDHomeRun app. Audio was a bit flaky, but perfectly fine for now.

So that's where I am as of now. NextPVR works quite well in the new hybrid environment. As soon as SD delivers the guide data for the newly added ATSC 3.0 channels the "no data available" issue will disappear. And that really leaves only the total inability to play HEVC video (1080p) and AC-4 audio.. which of course are major shortcomings, but fixable.

i'm surprised the Settings -> Decoders -> HEVC video section of NextPVR v5 did not show the presumably newly added HEVC codec installed through the MS Store purchase of "HEVC Video Extensions". But it didn't. There was nothing on the dropdown list of that item. Somehow the HDHomeRun app was able to make use of the newly installed HEVC Codec from the MS Store, so NextPVR needs to look for that codec as well.

And of course AC-4 audio support is a separate issue, but also needs to be addressed.

[DSperber]

Just for developer reference I will present here the output from MediaInfo for an MPG recording file (made by the HDHomeRun DVR program) from an ATSC 3.0 channel. I think this will be helpful, for both audio and video information.

Code:

General
ID                                       : 1 (0x1)
Complete name                            : F:\HDHRDVR\Live TV\Live channel 111.1 1f6909ac.mpg
Format                                   : MPEG-TS
File size                                : 29.1 MiB
Duration                                 : 37 s 104 ms
Overall bit rate mode                    : Variable
Overall bit rate                         : 6 550 kb/s
FileExtension_Invalid                    : ts m2t m2s m4t m4s tmf ts tp trp ty

Video
ID                                       : 49 (0x31)
Menu ID                                  : 3 (0x3)
Format                                   : HEVC
Format/Info                              : High Efficiency Video Coding
Format profile                           : Main 10@L4.1@Main
Codec ID                                 : 36
Duration                                 : 26 h 20 min
Width                                    : 1 920 pixels
Height                                   : 1 080 pixels
Display aspect ratio                     : 16:9
Frame rate                               : 59.940 (60000/1001) FPS
Color space                              : YUV
Chroma subsampling                       : 4:2:0
Bit depth                                : 10 bits
Color range                              : Limited
Color primaries                          : BT.709
Transfer characteristics                 : BT.709
Matrix coefficients                      : BT.709

Audio #1
ID                                       : 50 (0x32)
Menu ID                                  : 3 (0x3)
Format                                   : AC-4
Format/Info                              : Audio Coding 4
Commercial name                          : Dolby AC-4
Format version                           : Version 2
Codec ID                                 : 6
Duration                                 : 35 s 280 ms
Sampling rate                            : 48.0 kHz
Frame rate                               : 25.000 FPS (1920 SPF)
Compression mode                         : Lossy
Delay relative to video                  : 2 s 32 ms
NOK                                      : tools_metadata
Number of presentations                  : 1
Number of substreams                     : 1
Presentation #1                          : Stereo Main (Spanish)
Presentation ID                         : 0
Dialogue normalization                  : -24.00
Language                                : Spanish
Loudness                                : Yes
  Integrated loudness (speech gated)     : -24.3 LKFS
  Integrated loudness (level gated)      : -23.7 LKFS
  Audio Loudness Standard                : ATSC A/85
  Realtime loudness corrected            : Yes
  Dialogue corrected                     : Yes
Dynamic Range Control                   : Yes
Group #s                                : 1
Group #1                                 : Main
Content classifier                      : Main
Language                                : Spanish
Channel coded                           : Yes
Number of substreams                    : 1
Substream #s                            : 1
Substream #1                             : Stereo
Channel mode                            : Stereo
Channel layout                          : L R
Preprocessing                           : Yes
  Phase 90 Filer Info 2-ch               : Not applied
Dialogue enhancement                    : Yes
  Enabled                                : Yes
  Max gain                               : 9 dB
  Channel configuration                  : L R

Audio #2
ID                                       : 51 (0x33)
Menu ID                                  : 3 (0x3)
Format                                   : AC-4
Format/Info                              : Audio Coding 4
Commercial name                          : Dolby AC-4
Format version                           : Version 2
Codec ID                                 : 6
Duration                                 : 35 s 280 ms
Sampling rate                            : 48.0 kHz
Frame rate                               : 25.000 FPS (1920 SPF)
Compression mode                         : Lossy
Delay relative to video                  : 1 s 966 ms
Number of presentations                  : 1
Number of substreams                     : 1
Presentation #1                          : 5.1 Main (English)
Presentation ID                         : 0
Dialogue normalization                  : -24.00
Language                                : English
Loudness                                : Yes
  Integrated loudness (speech gated)     : -23.4 LKFS
  Integrated loudness (level gated)      : -22.2 LKFS
  Audio Loudness Standard                : ATSC A/85
  Realtime loudness corrected            : Yes
  Dialogue corrected                     : Yes
Dynamic Range Control                   : Yes
Downmix                                 : Yes
  LoRo center mix gain                   : -3.0 dB
  LoRo surround mix gain                 : -3.0 dB
  LtRt center mix gain                   : -3.0 dB
  LtRt surround mix gain                 : -3.0 dB
  LFE mix gain                           : -3 dB
  Preferred downmix                      : Pro Logic II
Group #s                                : 1
Group #1                                 : Main
Content classifier                      : Main
Language                                : English
Channel coded                           : Yes
Number of substreams                    : 1
Substream #s                            : 1
Substream #1                             : 5.1
Channel mode                            : 5.1
Channel layout                          : L R C LFE Ls Rs
Dialogue enhancement                    : Yes
  Enabled                                : Yes
  Max gain                               : 9 dB
  Channel configuration                  : C

Menu
ID                                       : 48 (0x30)
Menu ID                                  : 3 (0x3)
Duration                                 : 37 s 104 ms
List                                     : 49 (0x31) (HEVC) / 50 (0x32) (AC-4) / 51 (0x33) (AC-4) / 57 (0x39) ()

[mvallevand]

The 100+ channels are bogus Silicon Dust channels. I have suggested to sub to simply subtract 100 from the major number.

The NextPVR UI client uidroid should support HEVC and some level of AC-4 on most modern Android boxes that support HEVC.

Also via an Extra it is possible to transcode the AC-4 to AC-3 or AAC for more portability. Unless you need HEVC and not H264 I don't think it is currently worth it. Maybe when there is true ATSC 3.0 content things will be different.

Martin

[BrettB]

Unfortunately Schedules Direct does not yet have the new ATSC 3.0 channels included in the local OTA channel lineup I get, so for the time being there is "no data" to be shown. But I've opened a ticket with SD and I'm sure the new channel info (duplicated for ATSC 3.0 from the ATSC 1.0 version of that channel for at least the next 3-5 years) will be available before too long.

I believe that the broadcaster is saying the logical channel # is 5.1 and 11.1 for both the ATSC 1.0 and ATSC 3.0 broadcasts. However, SiliconDust decided to add 100 to the logical channel numbers for ATSC 3.0 broadcasts received by the HDHR Flex 4K. So, as far as Schedules Direct is concerned, the channels are 5.1 and 11.1. Now, in your NextPVR configuration, you can simply map the 105.1 and 111.1 channels to the SD data for channels 5.1 and 11.1 respectively. Problem solved.

Now the next issue is CAN I PLAY ATSC 3.0 PROGRAMS using NextPVR v5? And the answer simply is: NO. Absolutely no audio and absolutely no video.

I don't think that the answer is quite as simple as your "NO". With NextPVR there are 2 components: the recording engine and the client/playback. For digital broadcasts, the recording engine simply writes the digital stream to disk. The should work just fine with the ATSC 3.0 broadcasts. For playback, the capability is dependent upon the capabilities of the client. If you use a client which supports direct play (i.e. doesn't require transcoding) of the ATSC 3.0 HEVC and AC4 streams, then these recordings should play OK. I know that Martin has been successful at playing some of these via the uidroid client on at least a few of the Android players like the TiVo Stream 4K and Amazon Firestick 4K Max.

[DSperber]

The 100+ channels are bogus Silicon Dust channels.  I have suggested to sub to simply subtract 100 from the major number.

I'm not sure I understand what you're saying here. There's nothing bogus about the 100+ channel numbering. That is exactly what the metadata provides.



Those new channels actually exist. What's "bogus" about the assignment of metadata values?

That's just apparently how the networks are currently dealing with the duplication of ATSC 1.0 and 3.0 channels, when people have already gotten used to the "friendly name" of, for example 11.1, and now there is a total duplicate available. How do you both make it available, selectable, and intuitive that it is really just a duplicate of the below-100 version?

And for the next 3 years (at least) when ATSC 1.0 must be continued by mandate, if not even beyond that just by policy since not everybody will have dumped their "old" TV equipment and run out to buy new ATSC 3.0-capable devices, well for this new probably 5+ year transition period there are just going to be two of almost everything.

Similar to how cable companies renumbered things to support SD and HD versions of channels, back when that existed. The 400 series might be the SD versions and the 700 series might be the HD versions. Easy for the user to latch onto the scheme.

[DSperber]

Now, in your NextPVR configuration, you can simply map the 105.1 and 111.1 channels to the SD data for channels 5.1 and 11.1 respectively. Problem solved.

I hadn't thought of that, but you're right. For the time being, anyway, I can do that.

I've already heard back from SD support regarding the issue:

"Yes - our upstream is in the process of adding the necessary information (new audio and video encodings, etc) to their backend database. Once that's available, we will be able to publish the updated lineups."

[mvallevand]

They are bogus virtual numbers since it is a Silicon Dust work around I don't think this is how it will work on televisions.  If sub subtracted 100 then automap would work.

Martin

[DSperber]

They are bogus virtual numbers since it is a Silicon Dust work around I don't think this is how it will work on televisions.  If sub subtracted 100 then automap would work.

Martin

Now I understand what you're getting at.

In the AVS Forum for LA-OTA we've been talking about this for a week now. Somebody posted a picture of what an actual TV (brand/model unstated, but obviously a very recent unit with ATSC 3.0 tuner) presented when tuning to the Miss Universe program via the ATSC 3.0 version of KTTV:



I myself am not able to actually see the details and all metadata inside of the stream data coming out on RF 11 (which was repurposed last week soley for ATSC 3.0 use by the three networks rolling out their 3.0 channels) as my version of TSReader Lite only supports ATSC 1.0. I will investigate ways of getting a free or non-free stream analyzer product that can show the actual data for what's on RF 11.

But based on what the above TV tuner/OSD is showing, it's definitely decided to present the "friendly name" as "11.1" (and not 111.1). I don't think it just made that up or figured it out. I'm sure it is a metadata field value placed there by the broadcaster. And obviously they're trying to keep the "friendly name" of the network completely identical for the viewer, no matter whether watching the ATSC 1.0 or 3.0 version of that program that is simultaneously available through two separate physical tuned channels.

Also, it is not showing the actual call letters of the ATSC 3.0 service, i.e. KTTV NX, nor that of the ATSC 1.0 service, i.e. KTTV-DT, but rather some other value, i.e. KTTV 30. So where did that value come from? So it was either (a) "creatively produced" by the TV tuner electronics designers as how they are going to display ATSC 3.0 channels, or (b) actually a metadata field value sent out by the broadcaster, say in the PMT PID -> VCT value.

No question the information ribbon displayed at the bottom of the screen proves it is the ATSC 3.0 stream, i.e. 1080p and AC-4. So no question of what has actually been tuned to. It's what's up at the top that is most fascinating.

[DSperber]

Ok. For the time being (until SD updates the OTA lineup to include the ATSC 3.0 channels, however SD decides to designate, name and number them) the "no channel data" problem on the ATSC 3.0 versions of channels has been addressed. I've temporarily mapped them to the ATSC 1.0 channel numbers in the Schedules Direct OTA channel lineup.

Works just right. Thanks very much for that suggestion.

[BrettB]

They are bogus virtual numbers since it is a Silicon Dust work around I don't think this is how it will work on televisions.  If sub subtracted 100 then automap would work.

Martin

Now I understand what you're getting at.

But based on what the above TV tuner/OSD is showing, it's definitely decided to present the "friendly name" as "11.1" (and not 111.1). I don't think it just made that up or figured it out. I'm sure it is a metadata field value placed there by the broadcaster. And obviously they're trying to keep the "friendly name" of the network completely identical for the viewer, no matter whether watching the ATSC 1.0 or 3.0 version of that program that is simultaneously available through two separate physical tuned channels.

In the 3rd post of this thread, signcarver confirms what Martin and I have stated that SiliconDust is arbitrarily adding 100 to the channel numbers (provided by the broadcaster in the ATSC 3.0 stream) for ATSC 3.0 channels:

Not sure what you are asking... you may need to update firmware and/or run a channel scan or state the channels. I'm also assuming SD's DVR/app otherwise guide is out of SD's control. I don't see them [SiliconDust] reverting to not adding the 100 any time soon as people will want both available probably foe a few more years.

The original 4k unit didn't mark such channels with the +100 numbering system and may need a firmware update to do so (though it would have recorded those as it only added the 3.0 when they matched) so I don't think that is your issue as it sounds like you are seeing the 100+ channel numbers.