Confused about Digital TV (ATSC)

[WerewolfTA]

:confused:

Alright, from what I can figure out looking at misc. forums and reading the FCC's dtv web site, in the USA, the FCC is shooting for a cutoff date of analogue (NTSC) for the end of 2006. What I couldn't figure out is whether that applies to only OTA transmissions or cable, also. I'm on Comcast and don't have any set-top converter boxes, nor do I want them. I'm also not keen on the idea that a PVR card I buy now won't work a year from now. Am I going to have to ditch all my VCR's and TV's to avoid the dreaded set-top box or will there be an inline converter that doesn't control the channel (that I could live with), just converts digital to analogue, kind of like a power supply converts AC to DC (I rather doubt that, but I'm hoping)?

I don't trust Comcast tech support to give me a straight answer, or to even know what I'm talking about (the last time I tried to talk to them about different speeds for their ISP service, they were unaware that they even offered different speeds). I found a fair amount of info at the following, but nothing definitive and some contradictory:
http://www.msfn.org/board/lofiversion/in...30602.html
http://forum.ecoustics.com/bbs/messages/2/107329.html
Ignoring HDTV, which I don't care about, are there multiple standards there for digital broadcasts, kind of like DVD-R and DVD+R?

I was all set to get a PVR-150 to test the waters and then add a 500 once wifely approval had been met. Now, I'm unsure. Does anybody have some clearcut info they can give or direct me towards? Thanks.

[Torque]

I dunno, I've read a ton of stuff also about it and am just as confused as you. But just judging by the OTA DTV coverage around here, the 2006 cutoff will couldn't be met.

You can go the safer route and just buy a PVR150MCE w/out FM tuner from pcalchemy for $49. Then if that card is outdated in a year, you're not out as much Actually, if you have to put a box in place, you should still be able to use the card like I'm using mine... thru the s-video port instead of the tuner.

[KS4UA]

...

I was all set to get a PVR-150 to test the waters and then add a 500 once wifely approval had been met. Now, I'm unsure. Does anybody have some clearcut info they can give or direct me towards? Thanks.

Yes, there are multiple DTV resolutions. But if you're not going to HDTV, then I wouldn't worry about them for a long long time (in computer terms).

The government's plan for those of us who don't want to buy a new digital TV is a set top box.

That's what is going to be required to make all of your current analog NTSC systems to work.

Unless there is some "miracle device" out there that I haven't heard about.

[WerewolfTA]

Torque,

Well, I feel better that I'm not the only one confused. I think you're right about that deadline: I'm not finding that many products out there on the market. Even if the market is suddenly flooded, the FCC surely can't expect everybody to pick up new equipment in less than a year.

KS4UA,

Thanks for the link. I had already seen that, but in looking again, the part about QAM caught my eye. Noting that that's not supported in the dvico products, I looked again at the wintv-d and noted that it only supports ota for digital. So, it doesn't look like dtv is really an option right now unless you're using an antenna (& I can't pick up much of anything on my aerial). & to answer my earlier question, the dvico cards said they're compatible with all 18 ATSC standards and, it looks like, 2 QAM. So, plenty of standards for all.

I think I'm going to go ahead and pick up a 150, like Torque suggested. They're not that expensive. I don't want to wait until everything gets sorted out with the move from NTSC. And when the 150 becomes obsolete for TV capture, I can still use it to capture the feed from my VCR and convert those old home movies to DVD. Dang, I really wanted more than one tuner, but at this point, I think that would be just wasteful.

Thanks for your replies.

[mcervi]

The NTSC cutoff is early 2009 (don't remember the exact date, but I think it is after the NCAA tournament), but that applies only to over-the-air broadcasts. Cable can (not to say will) continue to broadcast unscrabled NTSC signals for as long as they like; I would assume they'll do so for a few years at least.

[WerewolfTA]

The government's plan for those of us who don't want to buy a new digital TV is a set top box.

That's kind of what I figured. I know you can get ir blasters to control them, but what I hate, unless they've changed since the last time I owned one, is that you would have to have one for every tuner, since it's the stb that controls the channel (or for those of us still using VCR's, no watching one channel while recording another). I'm sure Comcast would love to rent me 1/2 dozen or so, but I'd just as soon pass.

Open question: Do you think this'll mean the end of VCR's as we know them, with DVR's or something similar replacing them, or are we going to see updated VCR's that can handle the digital signals? I guess it's easier to "program" a DVR with its onscreen menu. Most people are only going to use the box that came with their service. So, they're going to be limited to a relatively small number of hours and will lose the ability to watch in any room other than the one in which the dvr resides. Before my oldest son got big enough to begin systematically destroying all my A/V equipment, we used to tape in one room and watch in another. Once I get this all working, I'm going the MVP route, so I still get the convenience of watching where I want, but the common layperson isn't going to be able to set up this kind of system. I'm curious to see how that plays out.

mcervi,

2009 does sound better to me, more realistic, too. Thanks for the clarification on the OTA. That was the info I couldn't find for sure.

Thanks.

[hazydave]

:confused:
Alright, from what I can figure out looking at misc. forums and reading the FCC's dtv web site, in the USA, the FCC is shooting for a cutoff date of analogue (NTSC) for the end of 2006.

The original date was based on a certain level (85%?) of consumer market penetration by HDTV receivers. Even that was a bit crazy... for example, I have one HDTV (two if you count my computer), but 9 other analog units. I think the proper metric would be met when an HD tuner could ship in a $100 set. Anyway, they have extended the date to some point in 2009 I believe. There's money in it -- they can steal back those channel slots, and in theory kick TV off the VHF band entirely (a few ATSC broadcasts are on VHF, most are not).

What I couldn't figure out is whether that applies to only OTA transmissions or cable, also.

The FCC's not involved in cable, at least on most issues. The cable companies could have killed off analog last year if they felt like it, or they could keep it around for 100 years. They could build they own HDTV technology and pipe that down to you, or (as most certaintly will) ride the ATSC wave. But they're a private company not using public resources to the extent of OTA stuff. So, much less regulation.

I'm on Comcast and don't have any set-top converter boxes, nor do I want them. I'm also not keen on the idea that a PVR card I buy now won't work a year from now.

Any digital tuner could stop working tomorrow, over cable (for the few that support 64QAM or 256QAM or whatever modulation schemes the cable guys use -- I can't get cable in my area), unless you have CableCard capability. That's the industry standard SmartCard pretty much all cable companies are agreeing to support. Again, stopping analog is an individual cable company's business decision. They have so much fickin' bandwidth on a modern cable system (with MPEG-4, they could do over 10,000 SD channels on most cable systems), it's hard to imagine they need the analog channels. And since all modern TVs support cable channels, they're set up to get more customers whenever the FCC does pull the plug on analog broadcasts. But only they know for sure.

Am I going to have to ditch all my VCR's and TV's to avoid the dreaded set-top box or will there be an inline converter that doesn't control the channel (that I could live with), just converts digital to analogue, kind of like a power supply converts AC to DC (I rather doubt that, but I'm hoping)?

A digital block converter? Nice idea, but impossible. You would need one MPEG decoder and modulator for every channel.

Ignoring HDTV, which I don't care about, are there multiple standards there for digital broadcasts, kind of like DVD-R and DVD+R?

There are multiple standards, but most are pretty closely related. The US broadcast standard is ATSC, the European standard is DVB, and most satellite and cable systems are closely related: using MPEG-2 and AC-3 or MPEG Layer 2 Audio, likely supporting the MPEG-2 transport stream or something very similar. But of course, the details matter... if you can't receive it, you can't receive it. The CableCard, and along with it, digital cable-ready TV, is based on everyone using the ATSC specs, maybe with adjustments for cable options (like different modulations; most cable companies want something better than OTA's 8VSB).

It's also likely that you will be able to buy a digital, CableCard compatible tuner with SD analog outputs. You would obviously need to control this as a tuner, so PC DVRs, TiVos, etc. won't have problems, but VCRing would be pretty manual. Does anyone still use a VCR (this, of course, coming from a guy with a networked, HD DVD player and three DVD-R/+R writers).

[WerewolfTA]

Thanks for the detailed info!

A digital block converter? Nice idea, but impossible. You would need one MPEG decoder and modulator for every channel.

Does anyone still use a VCR (this, of course, coming from a guy with a networked, HD DVD player and three DVD-R/+R writers).

Yeah, I didn't figure there could be such a thing. Kind of like my dream of a precognitive PC, so it can do what I want before I've even fully formed the thought.

Most people I know are still using VCR's. There's only a couple of people I know that have DVR's (they only became available from Comcast in our area a few months ago). Nobody I know has attempted to build one, so I can blaze that particular trail in my circle. Plus, all those people with movies on tape that haven't converted them to digital, so I can't see the VCR going completely extinct anytime soon.