Copy-Once and Copy-Freely by stream/program or channel?

[Lone_Stranger]

Hello, all.

I've got cable channels that I cannot tune with NPVR. An example is FoxBusiness (Brighthouse 1220). The channel is in the EPG normally, and WMC can tune it easily. But, NPVR cannot see it. Yeah, I know. DRM and all that stuff.

I'm asking myself "Why". I know that WMC and Tivo are specially allowed to bypasses encryption. And, I hear that anything else cannot access these channels. But, why? What is it that specifically stops others.

People routinely say it's the copy flags and DRM. And, I'd be happy with that, if it made sense. If that were the case, it seems that the channel would somehow be flagged in some way. Yet, everything I read says it's the data-stream that has the cci byte(s).

So, if it is the data that has the copy flags, then why can't we tune the channel? It makes sense that a given channel could have some programs that are copy freely, and also other programs that are copy-once/none. So, why do I continually hear about protected "channels", and why do I routinely lose channels that I have paid for?

Does anyone want to discuss this? sub......?

Confused...

[mvallevand]

CableCard tech. is blocking the tuning. If you want the raw ts stream you can use a QAM tuner but only clear QAM can be played.

Martin

[sub]

There is more to it than just a flag. These channels are transmitted in an encrypted form. I'd have pay approximately a $100,000 to get licenses to be able to decrypt this content (and to have my software certified), and then regularly pay several thousand more dollars each time I do a major software release, to have it recertified. This certification process would confirm that my software only records in an secure encrypted container format, and that all playback is done over an secure playback path (HDMI with HDCP).

This software is freeware and obviously doesn't have the funds required to pay for this.

[Lone_Stranger]

Hey, sub

I understand the difference between QAM and encryption/DRM, and I know the costs associated with compliance, but that isn't my question. The question, has to do with program stream being secure (the data stream contains the CCI flags), or the virtual channel being secure (having an equivalent to the CCI assigned to the channel).

I'm trying to understand why people keep saying one cannot "receive" a given channel because it is encrypted, when there are no CCI type controls for a channel (that I'm aware of). I'd expect that even though it's encrypted, one should be able to receive it, but not display it. That's how WMC works. Anyone can receive DRM protected channels, but they cannot view them without authorization. And, when they are not authorized, WMC displays a screen stating so.

I cannot receive FoxBusiness (my 1220), even though I pay for it. And, I'm wondering why I can't receive it. I'm authorized, since I pay for it, yet I cannot receive it. I have many other channels that are not secure in any way, except for QAM, and although I am authorized, I cannot view them. I should be able to receive and view all channels in the my 1300 range (40-50 channels), yet they are not available to be tuned. My channel 1301 is MTVHD, which I can receive and view via WMC. Yet, in NPVR it isn't even an option. Likewise for every channel in the 1300 range, except for 2. You can check Brighthouse for 34652 zipcode to see all the missing channels.

Something's missing here, beside the channels.

So, that leaves me wondering why your code does not allow me to insert/add a channel to allow me to understand and/or debug this thing. Smurph asked a related question, as well.

[mikeh49]

Here's a description of copy protection/encryption that may be helpful (scroll down). It is oriented to recording from the firewire port on the cable box which was a cool technology of the last decade. I'm not vouching for its accuracy, but sounds reasonable to me.

http://home.comcast.net/~exdeus/stbfirew...protection

[johnsonx42]

Something's missing here, beside the channels.

So, that leaves me wondering why your code does not allow me to insert/add a channel to allow me to understand and/or debug this thing. Smurph asked a related question, as well.

Martin already explained that. NextPVR doesn't have access to anything on the cable other than what the tuner and cablecard allow. All NextPVR can do is ask the tuner for the channel. The tuner/cablecard combination doesn't allow a non-cablelabs certified app or device to tune a channel that's not flagged Copy-Freely.

I don't know why you assume it's more complicated than that.

[sub]

I'm trying to understand why people keep saying one cannot "receive" a given channel because it is encrypted, when there are no CCI type controls for a channel (that I'm aware of). I'd expect that even though it's encrypted, one should be able to receive it, but not display it. That's how WMC works. Anyone can receive DRM protected channels, but they cannot view them without authorization.

As johnsonx42 said above, when I ask your Ceton device for a channel, and it's copy-freely, then it'll return me a stream of data. If it's not copy-freely, it'll return me nothing. ie, the device isn't a dumb tuner. There are extra layers of software that run on the device, and I'm talking to those, and it has logic that makes these decisions about what it'll deliver.

(FYI, you can record all these channels from a dumb QAM tuner device, but they'll all come out unwatchable, even the copy-freely protected channels)

And, when they are not authorized, WMC displays a screen stating so.

To be clear, this is ideally what would happen in NextPVR too. Ceton support in the application is brand new, and with this type of device the app can't currently tell the user it's dealing with a protected channel, so you don't get a message telling you this. Basically I don't have a Ceton device, and can't test anything myself, and some of this stuff is hard to add without direct access to a device to test with.

[rkulagow]

Are you on Brighthouse, or Verizon FIOS? Because Verizon is doing this:

http://zatznotfunny.com/2015-07/fox-lock...o-on-fios/

Maybe Brighthouse is now doing it as well?

[Lone_Stranger]

Sub,...

I have found out that in December of 2014 (8 months ago), Brighthouse changed all of their non-premium channels in the Orlando area to "Copy Freely". And, that in the first quarter of 2015, they did the same in the Tampa marketplace.

http://www.dslreports.com/forum/r2974044...ng-Stuffer

I have verified today, that all of my "standard" tier channels are indeed "copy freely". Therefore, I'd like to conclude that all standard tier channels should be view-able via NextPVR. But, I cannot test/validate this, because I cannot tune certain channels (as noted in my original post above).

I can tune/view channels 1214 (FoxNews) and 1220 (FoxBusiness) using WMC. But I cannot tune 1220 using NextPVR (on the same machine concurrently), even though I can tune 1214. Looking at the two channels, I see no difference. Both have good S/N and good signal, and both are marked CCI=00.

So, I thought if I could define my own channel under Settings->Devices, I might be able to tune it, or maybe find out what's up with it. This is basically what Smurph asked you for, however, he was into QAM only. I was going to try the patch you offered him, but I don't know how unique you made it for him.

This is the issue I've been trying to research above. I hope I haven't offended anyone.

[sub]

I can tune/view channels 1214 (FoxNews) and 1220 (FoxBusiness) using WMC. But I cannot tune 1220 using NextPVR (on the same machine concurrently), even though I can tune 1214. Looking at the two channels, I see no difference. Both have good S/N and good signal, and both are marked CCI=00.

Comparing against WMC isn't particularly helpful, because it can view all the channels. The fact you can view a channel in WMC doesn't give you any clue if you can view it in NextPVR.

You'll probably have to try watching the channel in NextPVR, then bring up the Ceton device web pages and see what it says about the channel.

CCI is the main protection indicator, but there are others. CGMS can also control whether the device will deliver content to applications like NextPVR.