Wireless Ethernet Bridge vs. WDS vs. AP for a MediaMVP

[jksmurf]

Hi

I have been running two WRT54GS's with HyperWRT Thibor 15c in WDS Mode as follows with my Wired Hauppauge MediaMVP for several years.
Server PC <=>WRT54GS (WDS+AP Mode) <=Wireless=> WRT54GS (WDS Mode) <=> MediaMVP.

I undertand this is half duplex so you only get 1/2 the throughput. A recent demand for bandwith has me looking at other options.
I understand I COULD do this?

A. Server PC <=>WRT54GS#1 (AP Mode) <=Wireless=> WRT54GS#2 (Client Mode) <=> MediaMVP.
OR
B. Server PC <=>WRT54GS (Wireless Ethernet Bridge) <=Wireless=> WRT54GS (Client Mode) <=> MediaMVP.
OR
C. Server PC <=>WRT54GS (Wireless Ethernet Bridge) <=Wireless=> WRT54GS (Wireless Ethernet Bridge) <=> MediaMVP.

I tried (A), (B) and © but couldn't access the Router #2 interface wirelessly using the IP address after reboot.

So I tried (D) which works wirelessly.

D. Server PC <=>WRT54GS (AP) <=Wireless=> WRT54GS (Wireless Ethernet Bridge) <=> MediaMVP.

Are there any network gurus out there who can advise the best approach for me to achieve this? No other clients connect to Router #2, but Router #1 needs to be an AP.

Should I be able to achieve the ones that do not work (i.e. am I missing a security setting issue - nothing else was changed)?

Cheers

k.

[zehd]

Hi

I have been running two WRT54GS's with HyperWRT Thibor 15c in WDS Mode as follows with my Wired Hauppauge MediaMVP for several years.
Server PC <=>WRT54GS (WDS+AP Mode) <=Wireless=> WRT54GS (WDS Mode) <=> MediaMVP.

I undertand this is half duplex so you only get 1/2 the throughput. A recent demand for bandwith has me looking at other options.
I understand I COULD do this?

A. Server PC <=>WRT54GS#1 (AP Mode) <=Wireless=> WRT54GS#2 (Client Mode) <=> MediaMVP.
OR
B. Server PC <=>WRT54GS (Wireless Ethernet Bridge) <=Wireless=> WRT54GS (Client Mode) <=> MediaMVP.
OR
C. Server PC <=>WRT54GS (Wireless Ethernet Bridge) <=Wireless=> WRT54GS (Wireless Ethernet Bridge) <=> MediaMVP.

I tried (A), (B) and © but couldn't access the Router #2 interface wirelessly using the IP address after reboot.

So I tried (D) which works wirelessly.

D. Server PC <=>WRT54GS (AP) <=Wireless=> WRT54GS (Wireless Ethernet Bridge) <=> MediaMVP.

Are there any network gurus out there who can advise the best approach for me to achieve this? No other clients connect to Router #2, but Router #1 needs to be an AP.

Should I be able to achieve the ones that do not work (i.e. am I missing a security setting issue - nothing else was changed)?

Cheers

k.

Can I ask an obvious first question: Why can't you run Cat5? The reason I ask is, a lot of what you ask would be moot, if you had cable. I suppose I know the answer. One way or another you can't (GAWD, I hope it's not cuz YOU DON"T WANT TO...)

And then the second question would be, if D works, why are you dissatisfied?

[jksmurf]

Can I ask an obvious first question: Why can't you run Cat5? The reason I ask is, a lot of what you ask would be moot, if you had cable. I suppose I know the answer. One way or another you can't (GAWD, I hope it's not cuz YOU DON"T WANT TO...)

It is a agood Q and yes, I agree it would. Well:

1. I live in a rented apartment with parquet flooring, reinforced concrete floors and brick and stucco walls. While plugs for pictures are permitted, the landlord forbids any perforations. I tried stuffing cable down a TV socket duct (with extg shielded TV Cable already in it) from upstairs to downstairs but the tubes are so blocked I can't even get it round the first bend ... :o
2. I have a second router anyway and ... I like to tinker. It's a nice way to learn ..well, "stuff".

And then the second question would be, if D works, why are you dissatisfied?

Simply put, throughput. I did the test throughput test using mvallevand's test with mvpmc and surprisingly, even with 1/2 duplex I got 6.xx mb/s in WDS mode:

Code:

Server PC <=>WRT54GS (WDS+AP Mode) <=Wireless=> WRT54GS (WDS Mode) <=> MediaMVP.

BUT I only got 5.xx mb/s with (D). I would have thought (D) was faster, not being 1/2 duplex.

Code:

D. Server PC <=>WRT54GS (AP) <=Wireless=> WRT54GS (Wireless Ethernet Bridge) <=> MediaMVP.

It's not that I fully understand all this network stuff, I simply follow "my understanding" of what I read, so I guess I'm looking for confirmation of whether my understanding is correct. If it is, I can move forward. If not, then I'd be grateful for a clarification :eek:

k.

[zehd]

It is a agood Q and yes, I agree it would. Well:

1. I live in a rented apartment with parquet flooring, reinforced concrete floors and brick and stucco walls. While plugs for pictures are permitted, the landlord forbids any perforations. I tried stuffing cable down a TV socket duct (with extg shielded TV Cable already in it) from upstairs to downstairs but the tubes are so blocked I can't even get it round the first bend ... :o
2. I have a second router anyway and ... I like to tinker. It's a nice way to learn ..well, "stuff".

Simply put, throughput. I did the test throughput test using mvallevand's test with mvpmc and surprisingly, even with 1/2 duplex I got 6.xx mb/s in WDS mode:

Code:

Server PC <=>WRT54GS (WDS+AP Mode) <=Wireless=> WRT54GS (WDS Mode) <=> MediaMVP.

BUT I only got 5.xx mb/s with (D). I would have thought (D) was faster, not being 1/2 duplex.

Code:

D. Server PC <=>WRT54GS (AP) <=Wireless=> WRT54GS (Wireless Ethernet Bridge) <=> MediaMVP.

It's not that I fully understand all this network stuff, I simply follow "my understanding" of what I read, so I guess I'm looking for confirmation of whether my understanding is correct. If it is, I can move forward. If not, then I'd be grateful for a clarification :eek:

k.

Well I know a bit here and there. I have heard of modifications to the Linksys routers. Even have one myself, but I didn't mod it. I'm really big on defaults. Defaults work for me...

Have you looked at Tipster's network hacks? I have found that I improve performance because Windows defaults aren't all that good, and turns out to be quite a show stopper. (Literally)

It's true that I have a 100 baseT network, and it runs at about 75 MB when transferring files... But My MVP (also wired) only pulls about 5 Mb when I'm watching either recorded or transcoded TV...

The other day I set up a MVP server on my wireless Laptop, got about 36 Mb signal and ran an MVP session, without a problem.

That leads me to think that you should be sure you can get close to Wireless G speeds (54 Mb/s). Although, I really wouldn't think there is a problem running speeds like half of Wireless B (11Mb)

Hmm rambling here. OK I just dropped my server's NIC to 10BaseT Half duplex, ran a recording and a transcode and the spike was around 8Mb and settled around 6...

D should be enough for you.

Are you having stability issues?

[jksmurf]

Well I know a bit here and there. I have heard of modifications to the Linksys routers. Even have one myself, but I didn't mod it.

Actually I am not a geek with the router stuff, but having said that I REALLY like the WRT54G/GS 3rd Party f/w (using ONLY HyperWRT) as it keeps the Linksys "feel" and codebase, gives me options like WDS etc and Static IP plus DDNS updates.

I'm really big on defaults. Defaults work for me... Have you looked at Tipster's network hacks?

LOL ...sorry, couldn't resist ..

I have found that I improve performance because Windows defaults aren't all that good, and turns out to be quite a show stopper. (Literally)

Yep sure have. Most of them ... I don't understand them, but I implemented the 5 or so ones I thought relevant...

OK I just dropped my server's NIC to 10BaseT Half duplex, ran a recording and a transcode and the spike was around 8Mb and settled around 6... D should be enough for you. Are you having stability issues?

Funny enough, with my ORIGINAL WDS setup:

Code:

Server PC <=>WRT54GS (WDS+AP Mode) <=Wireless=> WRT54GS (WDS Mode) <=> MediaMVP.

it was solid, stable, no jerkiness. With (D) it is solid and stable, but I got some awful jerkiness last night playing a file. I need to play around with it a bit more. So yes 6MB/s appears OK, I just read mvallevand gets 10, others 13....

k.

[David]

Hi

I have been running two WRT54GS's with HyperWRT Thibor 15c in WDS Mode as follows with my Wired Hauppauge MediaMVP for several years.
Server PC <=>WRT54GS (WDS+AP Mode) <=Wireless=> WRT54GS (WDS Mode) <=> MediaMVP.

I undertand this is half duplex so you only get 1/2 the throughput. A recent demand for bandwith has me looking at other options.
I understand I COULD do this?

A. Server PC <=>WRT54GS#1 (AP Mode) <=Wireless=> WRT54GS#2 (Client Mode) <=> MediaMVP.
OR
B. Server PC <=>WRT54GS (Wireless Ethernet Bridge) <=Wireless=> WRT54GS (Client Mode) <=> MediaMVP.
OR
C. Server PC <=>WRT54GS (Wireless Ethernet Bridge) <=Wireless=> WRT54GS (Wireless Ethernet Bridge) <=> MediaMVP.

I tried (A), (B) and © but couldn't access the Router #2 interface wirelessly using the IP address after reboot.

So I tried (D) which works wirelessly.

D. Server PC <=>WRT54GS (AP) <=Wireless=> WRT54GS (Wireless Ethernet Bridge) <=> MediaMVP.

Are there any network gurus out there who can advise the best approach for me to achieve this? No other clients connect to Router #2, but Router #1 needs to be an AP.

Should I be able to achieve the ones that do not work (i.e. am I missing a security setting issue - nothing else was changed)?

Cheers

k.

I haven't specifically used the WRT54GS (modified or not), but would think that the interface of the router would not be available in client or bridge mode when it becomes transparent to bridge the traffic from the MVP. You may be able to set a static IP address to still access the interface. I would think that Option A would work fine, but there may be issues in A-C with some of the broadcast traffic.

Alternately, you may want to look at old phoneline networking, or newer powerline networking. Powerline networking can be pretty solid if you are not crossing a breaker switch, and has reached 85MB/s.

[linene]

jksmurf,

To preface...I am not a "network guru"...with that said, i have been running wds for a couple of years now in a couple of locations. I have been using mostly motorola wr850g's, they use the same chip as the wrt54's. I use both the Motorola 6.14 firmware and also dd-wrt (which i highly recommend, but have only used hyperwrt a little bit). My understanding (and rudimentary experience) is that when your wrt's are set as AP's or bridges they will reduce the throughput in half for each jump between that you do. In my case, in one of my installations I have 4 in ap/bridge mode...the resulting half duplex theoretical speed is 54/2/2/2 (i.e. 3 jumps) = 6.75 Mbps half duplex max throughput and since it is half duplex more like 3.375 Mbps "duplex". In your case, i would think using C, or D are you worst choices, since your threoretical throughput would be 54/2= 27 Mbps half duplex, or 13.5 Mbps duplex. In practice (again from my limited experience) the actually throughput is less than this...I would guess about what you are getting (I have not heard a great technical reason for this and haven't theorized one myself that i believe...though I wonder if it has to do with the fact that wds is not incredibly robust for data throughput, though keeping a connection long term is pretty robust).

Anyways, I would try to get A working, since that should give you your best results (in theory...as I understand it). I don't think B will work, since it is looking for another router in wireless bridge mode. Your A scenario should work, I know I have gotten it to work with dd-wrt.

Just as reference, and to needle zehd just a bit:p ...it is very possible to get video streaming over wireless connections, and there are many reasons to do so. Yes, it can be problematic to get setup, but I think many of us on this board are tinkerers (I know I am...though not a very smart one :o ), and challenges like wireless can be rewarding. I am wirelessly sending ATSC currently and very robustly...but not with wds, I don't think HD streaming is possible with wds, since you need about 16 Mbps sustained. I am able to do it with one moto wr850g with dd-wrt firmware that I have optimized for this application, and only allowing clients to connect to it that are desiring video (I use gbpvr in client mode on those), I have a separate wireless network for other stuff, on the a channel at the other end of the spectrum. Also, I live in low density suburbs, so I do not have to deal with much congestion.

[jksmurf]

I would try to get A working, since that should give you your best results (in theory...as I understand it). I don't think B will work, since it is looking for another router in wireless bridge mode. Your A scenario should work, I know I have gotten it to work with dd-wrt.

Thanks for all your replies, this is good stuff.... Yes, my first thoughts based on this thread

[I]Client(STA): changes the internet(WAN) interface from the Physical WAN port to the Wireless Interface. Internet access via wireless interface. [This is helpful to give wireless access to a client device that has only an ethernet port, such as a game or multimedia box. It also gives WPA protection to Windows 98/ME/NT, Linux, Unix, and Novell. This mode does not serve wireless clients--it IS a wireless client.]

[/I]
was to use (A). But because I couldn't access the Router at 192.168.1.2 after making it a Client (STA), I thought it wasn't working.

k.

[linene]

jksmurf,

dd-wrt has a mode called "client bridge" which does your option A i think without using wds, and therefore no bandwidth halving...i am not sure what the hyperwrt equivalent is. "Client" mode in dd-wrt uses the wan side of the router (i have never used that side) so you may have to change the wan ip to be within your subnet so you can access it?

Edit: I looked at the link you included and looks like dd-wrt client bridge is equivalent to hyperwrt "wireless ethernet transport" which also is not wds. Now I am confused as to whether or not "wireless ethernet transport" halves the bandwidth...I think i may not, and therefore might be a good choice. So maybe D is the answer?

[jksmurf]

jksmurf,

dd-wrt has a mode called "client bridge" which does your option A i think without using wds, and therefore no bandwidth halving...i am not sure what the hyperwrt equivalent is. "Client" mode in dd-wrt uses the wan side of the router (i have never used that side) so you may have to change the wan ip to be within your subnet so you can access it?

I don't know to be honest, :o maybe your "client bridge" is (D) above "Wireless Ethernet Bridge"?

Hmm .... While other routers appear to have a WAN IP Tab, I am not 100% sure where I change the WAN IP in a WRT54GS...:confused:

k.